The Just Thought I'd Share Thread

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Carrie is my new Hero.

Where were you early yesterday???

Now, it's time to play guitar.

i was at work. work ruins everything.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by carrie721

jannie - is there anyone on this planet who is nonjudgmental? calling someone judgmental these days has pretty much the same connotation as calling someone a bigot, which is a little absurd. everyone is judgmental, or, to use a less loaded term, discerning. everyone has a set of standards they hold themselves and others to, and implying that iamnotafraid is a bad friend because he bristles at his friend's refusal to change something that he himself is unhappy with is silly. what is the value in being "supportive" if it fosters a friend's unhappiness and unhealthiness?

somewhere along the way, "overweight" became a new untouchable minority in our culture, as if someone is simply born fat, just as someone is born black or born gay. of course there is a vast spectrum of body types - i could lose 60 pounds, but i'd still be a short, broad-shouldered broad, whereas my brother is a foot taller and has to work to put on weight - but by and large, having a BMI in the obese range is a choice. again, i am not speaking from a lofty, skinny-bitch perch. i have a BMI of 36. i have struggled with my weight since a kid named jason fitzgerald first called me fat in 4th grade (funnily enough, i was not fat then, but i am now). however, i now exercise every day. i have to think about everything i eat because i was not taught healthy eating habits growing up. i know firsthand that the damage of eating disorders is deep, and quitting overeating is different from, say, quitting smoking because we need to eat to survive. so a person with an eating disorder faces his/her demon multiple times a day. i get that. but i do not think that it is an insurmountable obstacle for most people, nor do i think that treating it as such is beneficial to anyone.

JTIS.

You know, because of the field I am in, I do work with extremely NON-judgmental and empathetic people. Of course, that's a good thing, but it also contributes to my idea that most everyone either is or should be that way too. I know that I have to work really hard at it because of what I do, and I shouldn't sound holier-than-thou because I do have my own biases. So, you're right- everyone has some level of judgment-passing (I'm hurrying- at work-can't think of better words right now). What bugs me is when someone passes a judgment (either in an obvious way or a subtle way) and then doesn't acknowlege or own up to their feelings. All that being said, this is a Fleetwood Mac fan message board and not a place to wax poetic on empathy, diversity, and so on.

For what it's worth, I do believe one can be a supportive friend and still be able to SAY, "you know you seem to be awfully unhappy about your weight and I notice you sure do eat a lot..." or some variation of that. I don't think that we should tippy toe around people. But to comment on Anne Wilson's unflattering wardrobe choice felt catty and mean spirited to me, hence my responses.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by jannieC

What bugs me is when someone passes a judgment (either in an obvious way or a subtle way) and then doesn't acknowlege or own up to their feelings.

But to comment on Anne Wilson's unflattering wardrobe choice felt catty and mean spirited to me, hence my responses.

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

You know I've been thinking about this and I really don't think it's true. Fat jokes are made every day, you hear them on TV, in films, on the street, in your office. Some aren't too bad but some are really mean-spirited and nasty. I know a few people got upset here, but in general I really don't think being fat is considered untouchable at all, it's ridiculed and looked down upon all the time. You only have to glance at a copy of Heat or any magazine to see how shameful it's considered.

But anyway, I don't really want to get into the argument because I don't really care any more than that, but I was watching an interview today with Sharon Osbourne talking about getting a gastric band and it sounds pretty horrible, although it worked for her. She was saying to her that food was an addiction and unlike the treatment for other addictions you can't give up food altogether, you still have to eat every day, which I thought was an interesting way of looking at it and echoed what Carrie said in her post.

you're wrong and i hate you!



you're right, in many ways fat people are a free for all. i was thinking specifically and speaking generally. i don't know heat magazine, but i assume it's a gossip mag? in that case, there really isn't much that's off limits for those rags, tho i know what you mean. however, many people do treat it as an untouchable topic -- just see the comments in this thread -- and i don't think that's helpful for anybody.

on the topic of obesity, the atlantic had an interesting article on it a couple months ago:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-obesity/8017/

i don't agree with everything he has to say, but it's still an interesting look at the issue from someone who has firsthand experience with it.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by jannieC

You know, because of the field I am in, I do work with extremely NON-judgmental and empathetic people. Of course, that's a good thing, but it also contributes to my idea that most everyone either is or should be that way too. I know that I have to work really hard at it because of what I do, and I shouldn't sound holier-than-thou because I do have my own biases. So, you're right- everyone has some level of judgment-passing (I'm hurrying- at work-can't think of better words right now). What bugs me is when someone passes a judgment (either in an obvious way or a subtle way) and then doesn't acknowlege or own up to their feelings. All that being said, this is a Fleetwood Mac fan message board and not a place to wax poetic on empathy, diversity, and so on.

For what it's worth, I do believe one can be a supportive friend and still be able to SAY, "you know you seem to be awfully unhappy about your weight and I notice you sure do eat a lot..." or some variation of that. I don't think that we should tippy toe around people. But to comment on Anne Wilson's unflattering wardrobe choice felt catty and mean spirited to me, hence my responses.

is it possible to be a shrink without having your own values inform your work? that's an honest question, i'm not picking on you. i think about this a lot, and i really don't think it's possible to be nonjudgmental. it's possible to be a nonasshole, but i equate being nonjudgmetal with being overly permissive; if you don't pass any judgment on someone's behavior, doesn't that give them a free pass to do whatever? even if, instead of drawing the line between good behavior and bad behavior, you draw it between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior, that's still a judgment call. so is the expectation that shrinks be nonjudgmental valid?

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

so you're saying you're mean AND fat. got it.

hahahahaha.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

sorry, but jannie is far from that~i have always found her to be anything but that~

[BTFLCHLD]

[gretchen]

I'm having a Corona right now!!!...and I so want that delish burrito...

[LikeAWillow]

Yo, Ohio. Good post. I'm not going to quote the whole thing because you know why you rock.

My issue isn't with friends telling friends that if they're going to complain, they need to start acting, though. My issue is with this...

Originally Posted by carrie721

what a mess this turned into.

FWIW, i agree with this, and i took this as less a comment on her weight and more as a comment on her wardrobe, which, much like stevie's, does not flatter her figure.

... the fact that the original comment was, like you said, about iamnotafraid not liking Ann's wardrobe choices. When he was called out on that, though, a new front came out, the "I'm concerned for her health" front.

I really f*cking hate the "I'm concerned for her health" front.

No, random person on the street complaining about fat people, you're not mad because this girl you don't know is setting herself up for heart disease and type II diabetes. I don't hear you complaining about that pretty little anorexic cocktail waitress who served you drinks last night. Unless, of course, her bones were showing. Then it's just gross. Then she needs help.

The truth is, eating problems are fine as long as the woman courting them is, too. So no, you're not mad that fat people are hurting their health, you're mad because you have to look at fat people, and damn, when they don't wear clothes that hide the fat, you have to see it EVEN MORE! So own up to it when you're called out, don't hide behind a facade that you're just a concerned citizen. Or, if you're going to hide behind that facade, please don't torture me by going on about the importance of real talk and honesty about people with weight problems. I live in a city of hipsters. There's only so much irony I can take in one day.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by GODDESS6

sorry, but jannie is far from that~i have always found her to be anything but that~

I wasn't calling her that, I was thinking she called me that.


And LikeAWillow I can feel both, she should take care of herself for
appearance sake and health. Actually everytime I see Ms. Wilson I
feel some of both. I bet if she took care of herself she'd be happier.
Though all those Behind The Music shows have artist complaining
(as to what I meant in my original post).

This topic has really brought out some strong feelings from many of
you. And I wish I'd been a little more careful how I worded my original
post. But even if it seemed harsh, it was true from my point of view. At
some points in her career, I could have said the same about Stevie. Though
the older someone gets, I think they should get a little more slack.

Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me. I know there are many reasons
for weight gain. But anyone being honest would have to admit some are
just too lazy to do something about it. I have friends that fit in both catagories.
Some can't seem to lose weight no matter what they do. And others have no
will or are just too lazy to do anything about it.

More cake anyone?

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me.

You have got to just be goading us for fun now. Come on, dude. That's too easy ^

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

You have got to just be goading us for fun now. Come on, dude. That's too easy ^

I opened the door.

I did notice most of the posts were from "skinny" people.

[LukeA]

Oh, come on, its not like iamnotafraid has ever goaded us for fun before.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by carrie721

so you're saying you're mean AND fat. got it.

hahahahaha.

Yes, sometimes both.
I did eat six tacos yesterday.

Some say I was born with a heart
two sizes too small.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by carrie721

is it possible to be a shrink without having your own values inform your work? that's an honest question, i'm not picking on you. i think about this a lot, and i really don't think it's possible to be nonjudgmental. it's possible to be a nonasshole, but i equate being nonjudgmetal with being overly permissive; if you don't pass any judgment on someone's behavior, doesn't that give them a free pass to do whatever? even if, instead of drawing the line between good behavior and bad behavior, you draw it between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior, that's still a judgment call. so is the expectation that shrinks be nonjudgmental valid?

Believe me, my values do play a role in my work and I spend a lot of time examining them on my own and in clinical supervision. I remember writing a lengthy paper in graduate school, alllll about my values; where they originated and how they could impact my work. I don't think you're picking on me, Carrie. We've "known" each other for several years and I'm sure you know by now where my motivation comes from. Being a therapist does not mean that I sit in "non judgment" and give a pardon for ****ty behavior. Believe it or not, I am actually a confrontational therapist; meaning, I have no problem being reality based with my clients.

The term "non judgmental" can hold different meanings for everyone. The expectation for clinicians from the NASW Code of Ethics:

Social workers also should be aware of the impact on ethical decision making of their clients’ and their own personal values and cultural and religious beliefs and practices. They should be aware of any conflicts between personal and professional values and deal with them responsibly.

So, MY responsibility is to make sure that my biases, values, and judgments don't impact the client's treatment.

Is imnotafraid or anyone else on The Ledge bound by this? Of course not. I am not saying that imnotafraid is catty, but I thought that mentioning AW's outfit was mean spirited and I commented on that.

I need to stop commenting about this though, because I am sounding like I am speaking from waaay up on a high horse, and I don't want that. I do much better when I am *speaking*, rather than writing.