Do you believe in angels???

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by estranged4life
If Mel Brooks has thought of that idea???

Brian "Blazing Saddles" j.

'

Hey Torquemada - whadda say

[gldstwmn]

From the LA Times:

The leader of one of two Jewish organizations that this week condemned Mel Gibson's forthcoming film, "The Passion of the Christ," as an incitement to anti-Semitism said Friday that his organization is preparing an 11th-hour appeal for a cinematic postscript to the movie.

Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said in an interview that he has all but given up hope Gibson's final cut of the film will omit problematic material from the synoptic Gospels.

Most mainstream Catholic and other scholars now believe some material, particularly quotations and chronologies drawn from the Gospel attributed to Matthew, is not only inaccurate but also a provocation to hatred of Jews.

Gibson was baptized a Catholic, but now belongs to a schismatic congregation that rejects most of the practices and teachings adopted by the church over the past 40 years.

Foxman said he is preparing a letter asking the filmmaker, who self-financed the $25-million "Passion," to append a personal statement to the version scheduled for release Ash Wednesday (Feb. 25) in which Gibson would condemn any bigoted interpretation of his Passion narrative.

"Mel Gibson, like all of us, has a right to freely express himself," Foxman said. "As an artist, let him have the film he wants to have. But, given the film he has made, I would like to see him do a postscript. Let him say, 'I did this film because I believe I was inspired by the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind. Some people want to put the blame for his death on the Jews. Don't do that. I've said I wanted to make a "Passion" of love. Blaming Jews for Christ's death would make this a "Passion" of hate.' "

Conversations between the ADL and Gibson broke off some time ago over the organization's early expressions of anxiety over the movie's content. "But I haven't given up," Foxman said. "I'm sending this letter today (Friday)."

A call to Gibson spokesman Alan Nierob seeking comment on the ADL proposal was not returned.

As Lorenza Muñoz and Larry B. Stammer reported Friday in The Times, Foxman — who like other ADL officials has been barred by Gibson from screenings of "The Passion" — finally managed to see a version by surreptitiously entering a gathering of Protestant ministers in Orlando, Fla., where it was being shown by the filmmaker. What Foxman saw, he said, "was a film that portrayed Jews as blood-thirsty and unambiguously responsible for the death of Christ. I now understand why Mr. Gibson didn't want us to see it."

Foxman was joined in his condemnation by David Elcott, director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee. He, too, noted the film's revival of anti-Semitic stereotypes and drew particular attention to Gibson's decision to include Matthew 27:25, in which the group of Jews present when the Roman governor Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death is supposed to have said, "His blood be upon us and upon our children."

According to sources involved in Catholic-Jewish dialogue in the United States, Gibson's inclusion of such material in what is essentially a contemporary Passion play has become a growing concern among some American prelates. They have begun informal conversations about the advisability of taking some sort of action in advance of this film's theatrical release, the sources say.

One possible step would be to draw Catholics' attention to the fact that their church has a formal set of "Criteria for the Evaluation of Dramatizations of the Passion." Those guidelines were adopted by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 1988 and specifically warn against inclusion of several points Gibson has incorporated into versions of his movie now being screened.

For example, in the matter of that verse from Matthew — which appears in none of the other Gospels — the bishops' guidelines warn that it can be used in a manner "clearly implying a 'blood guilt' on all Jews in all times in violation of [the Second Vatican Council's] dictum that "what happened in his Passion cannot be blamed on all the Jews then living without distinction nor upon Jews today.' Hence, if the Matthean phrase is to be used (not here recommended), great care could have to be taken throughout the presentation to ensure such an interpretation does not prevail."

Similarly, the bishops' guidelines caution that traditional accounts of Jesus' trial before the Jewish authorities are historically suspect. The Catholic Study Bible officially approved by the U.S. church has a similar cautionary note and footnotes the passage from Matthew: "Guilt for Jesus' death is not attributable to all the Jews of his time or to any Jews of later times."

Gibson's "Passion" has received the support of the conservative Catholic League (which is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church) whose president, William Donohue, issued a statement Friday condemning the "unseemly campaign to discredit" the film. "The guilty include journalists, Catholic and Jewish theologians and Jewish activists," the statement read. "Their goal all along has been to portray Mel Gibson as [an] ... anti-Semite, and to upend his film with charges of violence in the streets. But their relentless campaign is ultimately futile: At the end of the day, the people will judge the movie."

Since his youth, Foxman has enjoyed an unusually close relationship with the Catholic Church. As a Jewish child in wartime Poland, he was separated from his parents and saved by his nanny, who had him baptized and raised him as a Catholic. After the war, he was reunited with his parents and returned to Judaism.

"I have," he said, "a tremendous love and respect for the church that gave me life again. Forty years ago, we in the ADL helped the bishops to write those guidelines that permit artists to be honest about their faith without being hateful in their work. What Mel Gibson is doing is as much an attack on the Catholic Church and the Second Vatican Council as it is anything else."

Why should that matter?

"Because it's now likely that more people will see his Passion in two months," Foxman said, "than saw all the Passion plays ever staged in the previous 2,000 years."

[AgainLindsey]

i believe in God and Jesus Christ

[CarneVaca]

It's hard to talk about something you havent' seen or read, but I understand the concern among the Jewish folks. There is fair amount of historic evidence that the Romans, not the Jews, were ultimately responsible for the crucifixion, though some of the details for the crucifixion as depicted in the Bible are somewhat suspect. When the Romans decided to adopt Christianity as the state religion, adjusting it to a lot of the pagan rites and beliefs so that it would become more palatable, they threw out pieces of the gospels and possibly distorted other parts so that the primary blame for the crucifixion would shift to the Jews.

Be that as it may, if Mel Gibson wants to release a picture that may be anti-semitic, and I will reserve my judgment on that till I see it, he should just go ahead. There is no better weapon than indifference. Boycott it if you have a problem with it.

[littlelies7]

Yes, I do believe in angels.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It's hard to talk about something you havent' seen or read, but I understand the concern among the Jewish folks. There is fair amount of historic evidence that the Romans, not the Jews, were ultimately responsible for the crucifixion, though some of the details for the crucifixion as depicted in the Bible are somewhat suspect. When the Romans decided to adopt Christianity as the state religion, adjusting it to a lot of the pagan rites and beliefs so that it would become more palatable, they threw out pieces of the gospels and possibly distorted other parts so that the primary blame for the crucifixion would shift to the Jews.

Interestingly, God Himself was ultimately responsible. I mean the Gospel clearly says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 I know God perhaps had hope man would rise above, but God is omnipotent and knew man would not. So, regardless of whether it was the Jews or Romans, Christ was going to die and was sent here for that purpose.

Note: I just had a huge dinner and am on cold medication - so this is a rather heady ramble even if true

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It's hard to talk about something you havent' seen or read, but I understand the concern among the Jewish folks. There is fair amount of historic evidence that the Romans, not the Jews, were ultimately responsible for the crucifixion, though some of the details for the crucifixion as depicted in the Bible are somewhat suspect. When the Romans decided to adopt Christianity as the state religion, adjusting it to a lot of the pagan rites and beliefs so that it would become more palatable, they threw out pieces of the gospels and possibly distorted other parts so that the primary blame for the crucifixion would shift to the Jews.

Agreed. History is written by the victors.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Interestingly, God Himself was ultimately responsible. I mean the Gospel clearly says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Excellent point, Jason. One I thought of making, but decided not to so I wouldn't take the thread too far off course. So ultimately, the finger about whose fault it is is not to be pointed at any mere mortals. By the way, isn't "Father, why have you forsaken me?" (or something like that) one of the oddest little bits in the Bible? Jesus knew he was supposed to die all along, but yet he has this outburst, which would be all too human and understandable for anyone else.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Agreed. History is written by the victors.

Also, it is often said Constantine (the first Christian Roman Emperor) just picked the horse he knew would win and chose Christianity to preserve the Roman Empire.

Similarly, the Catholic Church (arguably a related extension of the Roman Empire in the later years) did the same sort of thing by absorbing the pagan beliefs if the goddess as mother earth into their lore. That is one of the reasons why Mary is so exalted in the Roman Catholic Church. Personally, I find all Church history fascinating in the respect that the history of the world for the most part was written by the victors, in this case the Catholic Church.

Note: I am not slamming the Papacy, the Church, or anything like that. I am just observing how it played out.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Excellent point, Jason. One I thought of making, but decided not to so I wouldn't take the thread too far off course. So ultimately, the finger about whose fault it is is not to be pointed at any mere mortals. By the way, isn't "Father, why have you forsaken me?" (or something like that) one of the oddest little bits in the Bible? Jesus knew he was supposed to die all along, but yet he has this outburst, which would be all too human and understandable for anyone else.

I know - it is almost like God said "Listen Son - go down there and do this and I will save you at the last minute" and then "psyche" God is nowhere to be found I know that is hyperbole, but it is interesting. Many Christians in the various faiths believe that this "cry of dereliction" was Christ taking in the sins of the world and the task overwhelmed Him bedause He was human when He did it. Conversely, the remaining two of the Holy Trinity (God and the Holy Ghost) were not human and therefore were not similarly overwhelmed by the agony and anguish of the human Christ.

Here are some sites giving different perspectives. Note: I know nothing about these sites other than these blurbs

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2492

http://www.abideinchrist.com/devotion/apr16.html

http://www.bibleexplained.com/poetry/psalms/ps022.html

Again - I mean no slam to the Christian faith. I am just commenting on the literally awe inspiring events surrounding the crucifiction and those that make up the foundation of faith.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Here are some sites giving different perspectives. Note: I know nothing about these sites other than these blurbs

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2492

http://www.abideinchrist.com/devotion/apr16.html

http://www.bibleexplained.com/poetry/psalms/ps022.html

Again - I mean no slam to the Christian faith. I am just commenting on the literally awe inspiring events surrounding the crucifiction and those that make up the foundation of faith.

Jason, I'll give these sights a look. I've been doing a lot of reading on this stuff lately. Blame it on that darn Dan Brown and his irresistable Da Vinci Code.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Jason, I'll give these sights a look. I've been doing a lot of reading on this stuff lately. Blame it on that darn Dan Brown and his irresistable Da Vinci Code.

I know - I read it twice in the same week. I also just read "Angels and Demons," which was good, but not as riveting as the Da Vinci Code. I mean the stuff in the DVC is loosly based on fact, but he makes it all sound so real and it just makes sense. That - and I am a natural conspiracy theorist

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I most certainly do. My mom has had some encounters.

When I was in England, I can't explain it into words, but I always felt their presence. When I was walking around town, by myself, I wasn't.

I thought that was your little demon Lindsey trailing you.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Well it would be rather hard to have a movie about the persecution and death of Christ that portrayed the Jews in a positive light

You mean Jesus and his disciples will be portrayed in a negative light?

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
From the LA Times:

The leader of one of two Jewish organizations that this week condemned Mel Gibson's forthcoming film, "The Passion of the Christ," as an incitement to anti-Semitism said Friday that his organization is preparing an 11th-hour appeal for a cinematic postscript to the movie.

Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said in an interview that he has all but given up hope Gibson's final cut of the film will omit problematic material from the synoptic Gospels.

Most mainstream Catholic and other scholars now believe some material, particularly quotations and chronologies drawn from the Gospel attributed to Matthew, is not only inaccurate but also a provocation to hatred of Jews.

Gibson was baptized a Catholic, but now belongs to a schismatic congregation that rejects most of the practices and teachings adopted by the church over the past 40 years.

Foxman said he is preparing a letter asking the filmmaker, who self-financed the $25-million "Passion," to append a personal statement to the version scheduled for release Ash Wednesday (Feb. 25) in which Gibson would condemn any bigoted interpretation of his Passion narrative.

"Mel Gibson, like all of us, has a right to freely express himself," Foxman said. "As an artist, let him have the film he wants to have. But, given the film he has made, I would like to see him do a postscript. Let him say, 'I did this film because I believe I was inspired by the Holy Ghost. I believe that Jesus suffered for all mankind. Some people want to put the blame for his death on the Jews. Don't do that. I've said I wanted to make a "Passion" of love. Blaming Jews for Christ's death would make this a "Passion" of hate.' "

Conversations between the ADL and Gibson broke off some time ago over the organization's early expressions of anxiety over the movie's content. "But I haven't given up," Foxman said. "I'm sending this letter today (Friday)."

A call to Gibson spokesman Alan Nierob seeking comment on the ADL proposal was not returned.

As Lorenza Muñoz and Larry B. Stammer reported Friday in The Times, Foxman — who like other ADL officials has been barred by Gibson from screenings of "The Passion" — finally managed to see a version by surreptitiously entering a gathering of Protestant ministers in Orlando, Fla., where it was being shown by the filmmaker. What Foxman saw, he said, "was a film that portrayed Jews as blood-thirsty and unambiguously responsible for the death of Christ. I now understand why Mr. Gibson didn't want us to see it."

Foxman was joined in his condemnation by David Elcott, director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee. He, too, noted the film's revival of anti-Semitic stereotypes and drew particular attention to Gibson's decision to include Matthew 27:25, in which the group of Jews present when the Roman governor Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death is supposed to have said, "His blood be upon us and upon our children."

According to sources involved in Catholic-Jewish dialogue in the United States, Gibson's inclusion of such material in what is essentially a contemporary Passion play has become a growing concern among some American prelates. They have begun informal conversations about the advisability of taking some sort of action in advance of this film's theatrical release, the sources say.

One possible step would be to draw Catholics' attention to the fact that their church has a formal set of "Criteria for the Evaluation of Dramatizations of the Passion." Those guidelines were adopted by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 1988 and specifically warn against inclusion of several points Gibson has incorporated into versions of his movie now being screened.

For example, in the matter of that verse from Matthew — which appears in none of the other Gospels — the bishops' guidelines warn that it can be used in a manner "clearly implying a 'blood guilt' on all Jews in all times in violation of [the Second Vatican Council's] dictum that "what happened in his Passion cannot be blamed on all the Jews then living without distinction nor upon Jews today.' Hence, if the Matthean phrase is to be used (not here recommended), great care could have to be taken throughout the presentation to ensure such an interpretation does not prevail."

Similarly, the bishops' guidelines caution that traditional accounts of Jesus' trial before the Jewish authorities are historically suspect. The Catholic Study Bible officially approved by the U.S. church has a similar cautionary note and footnotes the passage from Matthew: "Guilt for Jesus' death is not attributable to all the Jews of his time or to any Jews of later times."

Gibson's "Passion" has received the support of the conservative Catholic League (which is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church) whose president, William Donohue, issued a statement Friday condemning the "unseemly campaign to discredit" the film. "The guilty include journalists, Catholic and Jewish theologians and Jewish activists," the statement read. "Their goal all along has been to portray Mel Gibson as [an] ... anti-Semite, and to upend his film with charges of violence in the streets. But their relentless campaign is ultimately futile: At the end of the day, the people will judge the movie."

Since his youth, Foxman has enjoyed an unusually close relationship with the Catholic Church. As a Jewish child in wartime Poland, he was separated from his parents and saved by his nanny, who had him baptized and raised him as a Catholic. After the war, he was reunited with his parents and returned to Judaism.

"I have," he said, "a tremendous love and respect for the church that gave me life again. Forty years ago, we in the ADL helped the bishops to write those guidelines that permit artists to be honest about their faith without being hateful in their work. What Mel Gibson is doing is as much an attack on the Catholic Church and the Second Vatican Council as it is anything else."

Why should that matter?

"Because it's now likely that more people will see his Passion in two months," Foxman said, "than saw all the Passion plays ever staged in the previous 2,000 years."

I heard Foxman speak about the movie in Houston last fall. Last summer I heard a Catholic priest speak about it in Boston. Also, I heard a rabbi who has screened the movie give a sermon on it a couple of months ago. He had to sign a waiver that he would not give details to the public, but he made it clear that he is worried should the movie be released in its present form.

On separate dates Foxman & Rabbi Rosen of Congregation Beth Yeshurun both shared a similar message. Their main concern is history's pattern of persecution of Jews at times when The Passion story is portrayed as history. The release of a film of artistic beauty but with a Jews-as-Evil theme could be especially damaging given that antisemitic rhetoric and actions have increased dramatically around the world in the last few years. Also, Mel's father is a Holocaust denier/Nazi sympathizer as well as a vocal critic of the Church. For whatever reason, Mel has refused to distance himself at all from his father's espoused beliefs.

The Catholic priest was concerned that Mel and his father do not support the Church as it now exists; they feel it is too liberal since the Sixties.

Many are holding hope that Mel will edit the film to exclude the presumably antisemitic content that the rabbi viewed.

- Jake