The Reagans

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Even after these types of discussions, I couldn't sit down and tell you necessarily which Ledgies are conservatives and which are liberals.

Could you tell what I am?

Originally posted by sodascouts
Well, I would certainly hope they would show restraint.

We can hope all we want, but they sure as hell woudn't show any restraint; they'd be out for blood. Then, in turn, us far-left liberals would cry foul and the right would say we're censoring them.

I don't know who watches shows like O'Reilly, Scarborough, Hannity or listens to any other public conservative, but they look at Clinton as the anti-christ. So, I don't have to speculate on how they would make a movie concerning Clinton; we all know how they would go about it.

As for the Reagan dime, they are taking advantage of the supposed "public outcry" over the miniseries. In essence, it wasn't a public outcry, it was an outcry from dyed-in-the-wool conservatives who fought like soldiers to get the mini pulled. The sudden boom in everything Reagan is giving them the ammo to get a famous liberal Democrat pushed towards the backburner and a famous Republican towards the forefront again.

The movie has been in the can for almost three years; it's a tad late for everyone to be crying about the timing.

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Why can't we all just get along

Because our country has fostered an intolerant society for three years.

We can't get along because ignorant folks believe that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, because patriotism is just the latest fad, because holding office is all about what can be done for the individual, because the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, because benefits are being taken away from those who need them most, because people are dying every day for bull**** reasons, because the President is more concerned with photo-ops than human beings, and because he had the BALLS to go to Iraq on Thanksgiving and pose for photos holding a plastic turkey. And his approval rating spiked, furthing showing how ignorant and stupid the people of this country have become.

We don't get along because our country is the butt of every joke made in foreign countries. We don't get along because we invade foreign countries and steamroll over the cars of people who steal wood to burn for their freezing families for punishment. Because we are the leading imperialists in this world.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
On the bright side, the economic indicators indicate that while it has a long way to go, the economy is picking up on almost all fronts. Hopefully, this will mean the big companies will begin hiring again to increase output. .

...except that yesterday a weaker than expected jobs report shows that the trickle down economic theory isn't working all that well. While unemployemnt is low, no new jobs are being created. How is this possible? One theory is that more people are becoming self employed. President Bush and his administration have not created one new job in their tenure. in fact they've lost about 2.5 million. The second largest one day drop in the stock market occured during Shrub's presidency. I would have voted for John McCain but they(Bush's special interests) bought the nomination out from under him. So jwd, if you're sick of the partisan politics what's your plan? Because we're stuck with it. It's the lesser of two evils type thing. I think there are some good people running for president, however they'll never get elected because they can't raise 200 million dollars for their campaign war chest and two, most people are too easily led or they just don't give a damn.
I think it would be nice if we could "all get along" with the people of Iraq. How do you like them apples?

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I'm not sure I get the analogy. I was saying that they could have at least waited until after Reagan was dead to do this. Roosevelt IS dead.
.

That was my point. FDR doesn't deserve to be kicked off the dime either.

[strandinthewind]

EEK - I cannot believe you really think it is that bad. If you do and you are right, we are all doomed

Interestingly, I went overseas to Europe several times last year and found the opinions of the people I spoke with (at all levels of life) to be split fairly evenly about the same as it is here. Also, many people had misconceptions based on no facts I know or knew. For example, someone in London supported the Iraqi conflict but then told me CNN was Bush's lapdog and was a conservative network. I was like CNN is many things but conservative probably would not be one of them

Moreover, although it is easy to say and sounds great to make a point, most of the economic indicators do not indicate the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer despite everyones use of that term. In fact, over the last decade (you have to use a significant period of time to measure this as it is an argument that presumes a long term trend not a particular few months), more wealth was created in this country and it was spilt more evenly than ever. I mean how many stories did we all hear about people starting some company and making millions and paying their staffs very well. I heard a bunch. In fact, I know a bunch. My favorite was the Microsoft millionaire secretaries club (why the hell wasn't I one ). Although the internet created wealth bubble burst and a lot of that wealth evaporated essentially overnight (this would be the rich getting poorer ), this sustained period of wealth (about three years) had a positive impact on the economy that created wealth in many different levels of people - just think of all of the jobs created from the buildings built in that time period. So, while yes, right now the economy is picking up and we are still feeling the effects of the recession (which again all economic indicators suggest is over (not that it can't come back)), the trend over the last ten or so years has been the creation of wealth within all socioeconomic backgrounds. Also, I had a friend complain and complain because her stock portfolio (401K) lost about 45 % in 2000 to 2001. I was like well, you have no one to blame but yourself because you could have sold half and pocketed a bunch of cash like I and your investment person told you, but you did not. Moreover, your loss of 45 % is still a 100 + % gain from your initial investment and now two years later that 45 % loss has been cut in half because almost all markets are up significantly. In other words, she is still way ahead of where she would have been if she had invested in Treasuries at about 2%

Seriously, I cannot ever believe anything is that bad. But then again to me the glass is always half full and everyoine has their own outlook of things - this is mine.

[sparky]

I thought the show was lame, but for a network miniseries, it was okay. Ultimately, I didn't find it all that disrespectful. The Iran Contra thing was actually softballed. Considering the gravity of that situation, it was a tempest in a teapot compared to the world media event that was Lewinsky. But, there was no sex involved in Iran Contra.
The vile legacy of Reagan, IMO, was his absolute disinterest in the AIDS crisis. He said nothing, he did nothing. For years. It took Elizabeth Taylor to get anyone to care about it, and in the interim, scores of people died, and scores got infected. His indifference set the tone, and gave people the go ahead to punish the people with the disease and allowed ignorance and intolerance against gay people to flower, thrive and metastasize throughout the country. He could have been a leader on the issue and could have been a decent human being. But, he couldn't risk alienating the religious extremists who put him in office. I don't particularly care what party he was in. His inactions on this issue were heinous and destructive on an EPIC level. For this, and this alone, I will dance on his grave.

Poor taste to be airing it as his family suffers through his illness. They had nothing to do with the damage he caused to so many.
Nonetheless, I will be dancing, dancing, dancing. Hope he's buried next to Jesse Helms so I have twice the size dance floor.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
... So jwd, if you're sick of the partisan politics what's your plan? Because we're stuck with it. It's the lesser of two evils type thing. I think there are some good people running for president, however they'll never get elected because they can't raise 200 million dollars for their campaign war chest and two, most people are too easily led or they just don't give a damn.
I think it would be nice if we could "all get along" with the people of Iraq. How do you like them apples?

I have to say I agree with you, it has always been the conservative v. liberal thing at least in my lifetime. I mean, I can remember politicians in the late 60's calling people "liberal" for wanting to get rid of the laws that allowed blacks and whites to EEEEKKKKK marry. The Christian far right said it was against God's laws and would foster heathens and a Godless and lawless society - none of this happened, but the far Christian right sure made a lot of money off of it and the so called liberal politicians taksed a good game but voted with the conseratives. Note: these are the same arguments the far Christian right is using against allowing homosexuals any rights at all to express what they feel and do on a consenual basis and the so called liberals are still talking a good game but still are voting with the conservatives (see the Defense of Marriage Act). So, apparently the beat goes on. That is sad to me. My way of trying to change it is ti judge everyone on their past acts and not their rhetoric or their political party. I think Bush thought he could change things, but it has not turned out that way for the most part, alhough and again, he certainly seems to be able to get a significant majority to pass his legislation.

As for getting along with Iraq, by all reports we are trying to do just that. IMO - we could have done it a whole lot better had we had a plan that worked instead of the one in place now, which despite the advances made in Iraq, clearly is not working as fast as people would like and is making the US and her allies look silly and incompetent.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
EEK - I cannot believe you really think it is that bad. If you do and you are right, we are all doomed

Interestingly, I went overseas to Europe several times last year and found the opinions of the people I spoke with (at all levels of life) to be split fairly evenly about the same as it is here. Also, many people had misconceptions based on no facts I know or knew. For example, someone in London supported the Iraqi conflict but then told me CNN was Bush's lapdog and was a conservative network. I was like CNN is many things but conservative probably would not be one of them

Moreover, although it is easy to say and sounds great to make a point, most of the economic indicators do not indicate the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer despite everyones use of that term. In fact, over the last decade (you have to use a significant period of time to measure this as it is an argument that presumes a long term trend not a particular few months), more wealth was created in this country and it was spilt more evenly than ever. I mean how many stories did we all hear about people starting some company and making millions and paying their staffs very well. I heard a bunch. In fact, I know a bunch. My favorite was the Microsoft millionaire secretaries club (why the hell wasn't I one ). Although the internet created wealth bubble burst and a lot of that wealth evaporated essentially overnight (this would be the rich getting poorer ), this sustained period of wealth (about three years) had a positive impact on the economy that created wealth in many different levels of people - just think of all of the jobs created from the buildings built in that time period. So, while yes, right now the economy is picking up and we are still feeling the effects of the recession (which again all economic indicators suggest is over (not that it can't come back)), the trend over the last ten or so years has been the creation of wealth within all socioeconomic backgrounds. Also, I had a friend complain and complain because her stock portfolio (401K) lost about 45 % in 2000 to 2001. I was like well, you have no one to blame but yourself because you could have sold half and pocketed a bunch of cash like I and your investment person told you, but you did not. Moreover, your loss of 45 % is still a 100 + % gain from your initial investment and now two years later that 45 % loss has been cut in half because almost all markets are up significantly. In other words, she is still way ahead of where she would have been if she had invested in Treasuries at about 2%

Seriously, I cannot ever believe anything is that bad. But then again to me the glass is always half full and everyoine has their own outlook of things - this is mine.

I can't agree that opinions about this presidency from the American people is 50/50. There's no way it is. Half of the people in this country don't know a thing about politics or current events and a lot of people don't even care to vote. They take what they see on TV as gospel and base everything on that. That's ignorance in my book and it's inexcusable.

As for Europe, the people you may have talken to may have had evenly spilt opinions, but they don't necessarily represent the population of Europe. Read their papers and see what they think of us; I would recommend the Economist.

Also, when you look at what is being done and when you look at the rich and the poor, look at it sociologically. Don't always look at the facts because they're sometimes misleading.

You don't have to believe that things are that bad, but they certainly are. When you take every little thing and add them all up, it will make your jaw drop. Our current government has made such a mess of things that it is going to take decades upon decades to fix (if it can be fixed).

I will just ask a question and hopefully someone will respond, because I don't have an answer:

What has Bush done to make things better for us?

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
As for getting along with Iraq, by all reports we are trying to do just that. IMO - we could have done it a whole lot better had we had a plan that worked instead of the one in place now, which despite the advances made in Iraq, clearly is not working as fast as people would like and is making the US and her allies look silly and incompetent.

We didn't even have a plan to begin with, nevermind one that worked!

If Bush stuck by what he said would happen (giving complete control of government over to the Iraqi's), we wouldn't be there right now and an Islamic government run by the Shiite's would be in place.

[gldstwmn]

Well Jason I have to agree with you. I don't think Bush ever wanted unity though. You could be right about that though. The guy is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer and he could have been operating under some kind of delusion. His original intent in life was to be baseball commissioner. I always thought he was the puppet while Rumsfeld and Cheney pulled the strings.
Also, I seriously doubt the Iraqi people feel we're there to make friends with them. I could be wrong about that too. "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy."

[dissention]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I always thought he was the puppet while Rumsfeld and Cheney pulled the strings.

Hey-

That reminds me of the joke Kerry made about the "Almighty."

[strandinthewind]

Bush's economic policies are working and are helping lead us out of the recession that started at the end of the prior administration. Again, we have a long way to go, but all indicators suggest the economy is in a recovery mode. So, his policies are working enough on some level. That, to me, is remarkable considering the effects of 9/11 on the already crippled economy.

Bush has done the best with the terrorist problems that he could do in my opinion. Granted he has not caught OBL, but his organization clearly is weaker than it was when it blew up our buildings and killed our people; it also has no state that "officially" sponsors it. Interestingly, I can remember people I know bitching and complaining about us invading Afganistan saying there was no clear link with OBL, etc. It turned out they were wrong, esp. when OBL and one of the heads of the Taliban appeared together after the Taliban lied and said OBN was not there and he could never have committed the acts on 9/11. then there was the video tape of OBL laughing about the attacks as he heard of them and saying wait there is more. In the end, though, we need to capture him and kill everyone in that organization, a goal I submit no President from any political party will be able to achieve.

Iraq - still in the air for me. As we have discussed before, I think it was the right thing to do the oust S.H. because 11 years of his b.s. was just too much in todays world of terrorism on American soil (I am not equating S.H. with O.B.L. ) and the world via the U.N. consistently and unanimously found for 11 years that S.H. had WMD, but would not cooperate with the inspectors. They also voted S.H. must face serious consequences for not cooperating with the inspectors. So, the defiance Iraq's leader showed the world, in my opinion, was the sole cause of this war. I do not agree with the policies of the police state currently there. I do not know why we are not working faster if that is even possible.

The new medicare bill, while not perfect, is far better than anything passed to date. Short of state owned drug companies and socialized medicine which no party will ever advocate, I know of no better bill that could have had a chance of passing. Bush even managed to get the AARP to support it, a feat not thought possible a few years ago. This is a major victory for him and it will help many Americans, although not as much as I would have liked but what I wanted was not obtainable and will never be obtainable untilt he govt. controls the doctors and the drugs.

There are the biggies I can think of now. Again, I am not saying Bush is perfect. I am just saying he has had successes and these are some I think were that.

Interestingly, go here to see a Fox News poll suggesting Bush has less than half of a chance of being reelected. Yes, this is on FOX news and they give the raw data. How about them apples!!!! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105000,00.html

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Also, I seriously doubt the Iraqi people feel we're there to make friends with them. I could be wrong about that too. "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy."

There was that poll released by a reputable company (Zogby perhaps) a few months ago that suggested that although the iraq's did not like Bush (surprise there ) , something like 60 % of them were thankful of the removal of S.H. and a similar percentage felt they would be better off in the next year. So, that is something.

[sodascouts]

I for one can get along with just about anyone, because I don't let my party affiliation define who I should like and dislike, or even what I should believe. I actually can be critical of my own party, and don't automatically press the button beside the "R." I actually have my OWN principles and think for MYSELF. I don't think Bill Clinton is an anti-Christ because some conservative talk show psycho like Ann Coulter does.

And I have made the decision to be a conservative. Guess that makes me a bad person in some people's eyes. I still think pretty highly of myself regardless.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Bush's economic policies are working and are helping lead us out of the recession that started at the end of the prior administration. Again, we have a long way to go, but all indicators suggest the economy is in a recovery mode. So, his policies are working enough on some level. That, to me, is remarkable considering the effects of 9/11 on the already crippled economy.

Bush has done the best with the terrorist problems that he could do in my opinion. Granted he has not caught OBL, but his organization clearly is weaker than it was when it blew up our buildings and killed our people; it also has no state that "officially" sponsors it. Interestingly, I can remember people I know bitching and complaining about us invading Afganistan saying there was no clear link with OBL, etc. It turned out they were wrong, esp. when OBL and one of the heads of the Taliban appeared together after the Taliban lied and said OBN was not there and he could never have committed the acts on 9/11. then there was the video tape of OBL laughing about the attacks as he heard of them and saying wait there is more. In the end, though, we need to capture him and kill everyone in that organization, a goal I submit no President from any political party will be able to achieve.

Iraq - still in the air for me. As we have discussed before, I think it was the right thing to do the oust S.H. because 11 years of his b.s. was just too much in todays world of terrorism on American soil (I am not equating S.H. with O.B.L. ) and the world via the U.N. consistently and unanimously found for 11 years that S.H. had WMD, but would not cooperate with the inspectors. They also voted S.H. must face serious consequences for not cooperating with the inspectors. So, the defiance Iraq's leader showed the world, in my opinion, was the sole cause of this war. I do not agree with the policies of the police state currently there. I do not know why we are not working faster if that is even possible.

The new medicare bill, while not perfect, is far better than anything passed to date. Short of state owned drug companies and socialized medicine which no party will ever advocate, I know of no better bill that could have had a chance of passing. Bush even managed to get the AARP to support it, a feat not thought possible a few years ago. This is a major victory for him and it will help many Americans, although not as much as I would have liked but what I wanted was not obtainable and will never be obtainable untilt he govt. controls the doctors and the drugs.

There are the biggies I can think of now. Again, I am not saying Bush is perfect. I am just saying he has had successes and these are some I think were that.

Interestingly, go here to see a Fox News poll suggesting Bush has less than half of a chance of being reelected. Yes, this is one FOX news and they give the raw data. How about them apples!!!! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105000,00.html

Even analysts say it's too early to tell if the economy will perk up much more, but here's to hoping. I'm not putting any faith into it. I just find some of the things he's doing to boost the economy rather funny. For example, lifting the steel tariffs. Betcha that'll cost him some states in the next election and I can't wait to see the effect it will have on global trading. Also, I just think that for any of his economic policies to be called successful, jobs need to be created.

The Medicare bill is nothing to write home about: it has the interests of the drug companies and the insurers in mind, not the tens of millions who need it. The Alliance for Retired Americans was appalled with it and called it for what it is: privatized medicare. And now, because of this new bill the federal government is throwing a hissy fit about folks buying drugs in Canada and are calling them unsafe! Before, the FDA just looked the other way. The bill is as muddled as anything ever proposed, IMO.

As for the rest of the points you made, let's just agree to disagree...as we always do.

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I for one can get along with just about anyone, because I don't let my party affiliation define who I should like and dislike, or even what I should believe. I actually can be critical of my own party, and don't automatically press the button beside the "R." I actually have my OWN principles and think for MYSELF. I don't think Bill Clinton is an anti-Christ because some conservative talk show psycho like Ann Coulter does.

I never said that you may have thought Clinton was the anti-christ, I said that the high-profile conservatives did.

I can get along with anyone, I just don't agree with most Republicans on the issues.

I'm sure you think for yourself very well (you have clearly demonstrated it), but many of the conservatives in our country follow these big-name conservatives as if they're gods.