Securing our borders - Page 9

dissention · #**121** 04-26-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Oh, and a comment about Lux's long post--I think she has some great (sorry for overusage of that word

) points about how uppity and potentially dangerous our attitudes can be. (I'm not talking about anyone in particular here). Sometimes I wonder how close we are to fascism. Y'all humor me and look at this, since "exuberant nationalism" is the first of twelve warning signs of fascism.

We've been on the road to fascism for awhile now.

That site is pretty good, thanks for posting.

David · #**122** 04-26-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

But seriously, at what point does a country do so many horrible things that it's no longer a "great country"? At what point does the bad outweigh the good?

I don't think countries are "great" or "not great." A country is an abstraction, a way of speaking, a verbal convenience. Only a person can do great things or not great things -- not a government or a country or a community or the whole planet.

When there's bad seemingly coming from a government, it's because it's coming from some people who are being & doing bad. Nothing bad is ever done anywhere in the universe unless someone, somewhere does it. All moral actions have agents. Anything that happens without a human agent behind it -- a volcanic eruption or a solar eclipse or a pretty snowfall -- happens outside the realm of morals, which can only apply to people, & not even to people grouped together but only to a person -- one person -- at a time.

dissention · #**123** 04-26-2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Hate to speak for her, but somehow I can't believe she could have meant it like that. But you probably know that, too.

I got the impression that she thinks we should be spending money here on our citizens before intervening to stop such things.

GateandGarden · #**124** 04-26-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't think countries are "great" or "not great." A country is an abstraction, a way of speaking, a verbal convenience. Only a person can do great things or not great things -- not a government or a country or a community or the whole planet.

When there's bad seemingly coming from a government, it's because it's coming from some people who are being & doing bad. Nothing bad is ever done anywhere in the universe unless someone, somewhere does it. All moral actions have agents. Anything that happens without a human agent behind it -- a volcanic eruption or a solar eclipse or a pretty snowfall -- happens outside the realm of morals, which can only apply to people, & not even to people grouped together but only to a person -- one person -- at a time.

Great post. Thank you. I agree and I suppose I've just never thought of how to verbalize this. It's senseless to give a country credit for something we perceive as good or to blame it for something we perceive as bad because the country itself is not what's doing anything. It's probably also unfair to say that every person in the government is to blame for wrongdoing. I can't see how every member of it could be corrupt. Certainly not every citizen is responsible for wrongdoing. So, I agree with you and I think the same applies to states, cities, etc. The names are, as you said, simply a convenience for us.

GardenStateGirlie · #**125** 04-26-2005, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

I got the impression that she thinks we should be spending money here on our citizens before intervening to stop such things.

I didn't get that impression either. I knew what she meant.

This is the point I think that's running throughout this thread (and i'm popping in late but have just read quite a bit). It's a double-edged sword...you help here and you have people calling this country a bunch of uncaring elitists and if you help over there, you have people in this country pitching a bitch because they feel the money needs to stay here. You can't win. Someone is always going to be displeased and I feel as a citizen of this country, no matter what we do...no matter how much we might financially help...no matter how much medical care we're able to provide...how many people we are able to feed because of our generosity throughout this countries history, people will always say we just aren't doing enough. That makes me sick. And yes, she's right, they may talk about how horrible we are but that doesn't stop them from taking our aid (in whatever form it appears). I'm not saying that it's right, wrong, or indifferent but it is what it is.

dissention · #**126** 04-26-2005, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GardenStateGirlie

I didn't get that impression either. I knew what she meant.

Good, you get a certificate.

GardenStateGirlie · #**127** 04-26-2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

Good, you get a certificate.

I'd prefer gold stars and a cookie hon

dissention · #**128** 04-26-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

Did you read my post though? Who are you talking about taking America's aid? What aid? The aid is tiny, it's nothing to be proud of. America could really do a lot of good with aid, it could change the situation for an entire people, but it chooses not to. And another main factor is it's a large contributor for putting impoverished countries in the position anyway. I'm of the belief that no aid given to most African nations (it becomes more specific to circumstances, but in general) ever need be responded with a "thankyou". We owe them that money as inhabitants of the Earth and as those guilty of plunging them into the situations they are in. Aid? Don't kid yourself.

Lux, you're fabulous. Truly.

dissention · #**129** 04-26-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GardenStateGirlie

I'd prefer gold stars and a cookie hon

You can't have stars, The Knight will destar you!

A cookie I can do, but I make no promises pertaining to whether it's edible or not.

GardenStateGirlie · #**130** 04-26-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

Did you read my post though? Who are you talking about taking America's aid? What aid? The aid is tiny, it's nothing to be proud of. America could really do a lot of good with aid, it could change the situation for an entire people, but it chooses not to. And another main factor is it's a large contributor for putting impoverished countries in the position anyway. I'm of the belief that no aid given to most African nations (it becomes more specific to circumstances, but in general) ever need be responded with a "thankyou". We owe them that money as inhabitants of the Earth and as those guilty of plunging them into the situations they are in. Aid? Don't kid yourself.

Yes, I read your post

strandinthewind · #**131** 04-26-2005, 07:44 PM

Lux -

Again, all reports indicate we give the most of anyone - and that is just the govt. and does not take into consideration individual and corporate donations, which are in the billions. Moreover, comparing America's GNP to any other country in the world is unfair because America's GNP is far larger than any other country and she has a HUGE population - I know you know that. But, you continue to use it as the one and only standard and when you do, you do not take into account private and corp. gifts. FInally, not all aid from America is loans and many times those loans are forgiven or some other method is achieved.

But, I guess you are right - we Americans are all stingy self centered jerks over here. In fact, I think we should stop our gifts as they are so paltry. Let's see where that gets the world

Finally, you never say anything nice about America. I think that shows your bias. I mean certainly, the amount we give helps at least one person somewhere

strandinthewind · #**132** 04-26-2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

This administration intends to over spend. It is part of the ideology. If you over spend then you can justify making cuts in social programs, which also was always on the agenda. This is called "starve the beast".

http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/001640.html

Yep - and that is why they are FAR from conservative. I despise this administration.

strandinthewind · #**133** 04-26-2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I dont think thats a bad thing, sorry

Jason is right, America gets bashed all the time but the people doing the bashing have no problem accepting our help. That smacks of hypocrisy to me. I fail to see why closed borders is seen as a bad thing? Persons who are here LEGITIMATELY should have no problem. and before anyone brings up the exploitation of migrant farmworkers, I dont agree with that practice either. Those workers who are here legit, should be paid a decent wage. IMO, that is a separate (though somewhat related) issue.

Living in CA, we deal with porous borders all the time. The FACT is, our state is FILLING UP with people who dont pay taxes and expect a hand out a la welfare. I can speak from experience here, because I WORK for Social Services and I can tell you that even in our quaint little burg, the demographics are changing. My county is not cash fluid, there is no real industry here, only a University and the most inflated housing prices in the ENTIRE US!!!! My point is, there are increasing numbers of non tax payers and these increasing numbers bring with them a need for more infrastructure and basically NO $$ to pay for it. The homeless population is exploding!

at some point, reality needs to be faced that there is a max load that can be effectively handled. I think we've reached it. If CA keeps on absorbing illegal aliens our economy will implode. DC has already proven its lack of sympathy for us, so the answer lies somewhere else........

- I agreed with Diss and you in the same day - I need a purge as I am being to nice

strandinthewind · #**134** 04-26-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

You don't think ignoring genocide is a bad thing? That's quite...inhuman.

I think her point was it is occuring here and here is where the first responsibility is

Again, there is a finite amount of money even if the BS spending is stopped. Many people are for feeding us first and then the world. In the end, I think the US does what it can and it cannot do everything alone.

strandinthewind · #**135** 04-26-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

Did you read my post though? Who are you talking about taking America's aid? What aid? The aid is tiny, it's nothing to be proud of. America could really do a lot of good with aid, it could change the situation for an entire people, but it chooses not to. And another main factor is it's a large contributor for putting impoverished countries in the position anyway. I'm of the belief that no aid given to most African nations (it becomes more specific to circumstances, but in general) ever need be responded with a "thankyou". We owe them that money as inhabitants of the Earth and as those guilty of plunging them into the situations they are in. Aid? Don't kid yourself.

I, for the most part, agree. I think we should give the money and not expect repayment, which we do imn many cases.

MY WORD - I agreed with Lux, Mary, and Diss in one day.

I am starting to get soft