Terri Schiavo: Please explain something to me...

[skcin]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Well, if she is aware then it would be even worse keeping her alive and trapped like that when she said she would never want to live that way. But I don't believe that she's aware and I have a background in biology. Scientists and doctors would agree that she isn't aware but you're right, they're only 99.9% sure.

I understand your point, Suze. But I have a medical background & let's be honest, the human body is not an exact science. It is quite possible she can feel pain. What about the horror stories of people who were under anesthesia but could feel everything & couldn't move/react/scream/whatever. I know, not the same thing. But it shows that what should happen does not always happen. There's that small chance she will be in agony.

Again, I totally support euthanasia and/or the right to die by requesting no rescucitation, ventilators, etc. I'd be 100% fine with it if Terri had "no feeding tubes" written down. But she didn't. That's all.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

I'm not confusing that case. I am not speaking of the mentally retarded. I am speaking of the mentally ill. They are two different cases with two very different issues.

To my knowledge, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of whether or not those who mental capacities were below a certain IQ should be exempt from capital punishment. I don't know what your alluding to when you say "mentally ill". Those who have been deemed "mentally ill" (they have a diagnosed mental disorder, such as schitzophrenia) have never been sentenced to the death penalty. They have been convicted of a crime based on insanity.

I believe you are referring to the recent Supreme Court decision that stated that those whose mental capacities are below a certain IQ level should not be subject to the death penalty.

Again, this is confusing the issue as it is unrelated to the situation at hand.

Doctors have determined that after 15 years in a vegatative state and the conditon of her cerabral cortex, that Terri does not have conscious thought and is unaware of her surroundings. Florida courts (and the Supreme Court) have reviewed this case over the last seven-plus years and have ruled for Terri's guardian in every instance.

Standard bio-ethics parameters say that anyone in a persistent vegatative state for more than 18 months is beyond the scope of treatment or improvement.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by skcin

Again, I totally support euthanasia and/or the right to die by requesting no rescucitation, ventilators, etc. I'd be 100% fine with it if Terri had "no feeding tubes" written down. But she didn't. That's all.

What if everything in this case were exactly the same, but the only thing keeping her alive was a ventilator? Would you think it cruel to have her suffocate to death?

[skcin]

Originally Posted by The Tower

What if everything in this case were exactly the same, but the only thing keeping her alive was a ventilator? Would you think it cruel to have her suffocate to death?

Hhhmmm, so still nothing in writing? Tricky situation. I know several people have said that Terris said "no tubes." Most lay people think of tubes down the throat, in your veins, etc. So I would have to think she meant a vent.

But no, I don't think it's cruel. Doesn't take long to pass out without O2. She'd be unconcious within seconds & die quickly. It's taking her days to die from starvation.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by The Tower

To my knowledge, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of whether or not those who mental capacities were below a certain IQ should be exempt from capital punishment. I don't know what your alluding to when you say "mentally ill". Those who have been deemed "mentally ill" (they have a diagnosed mental disorder, such as schitzophrenia) have never been sentenced to the death penalty. They have been convicted of a crime based on insanity.

Yes, they did address the issue of whether it was cruel or unusual punishment to execute people classified as "mentally retarded". Again, that is not what I am referring to.

The situation that I am referring to is when someone has been sentenced to death and THEN becomes mentally ill. The Supreme Court has indicated that it is cruel and unusual to execute them because they are not in a state of awareness regarding the execution.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

The situation that I am referring to is when someone has been sentenced to death and THEN becomes mentally ill. The Supreme Court has indicated that it is cruel and unusual to execute them because they are not in a state of awareness regarding the execution.

Interesting. When did this happen?

[dissention]

Oy, Patricia Heaton, you are a ****ing nut.

She just said that she's fasting on Good Friday to "show some solidarity" for Terri and her parents.

And now Mel Gibson is releasing press statements regarding this case.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by skcin

Hhhmmm, so still nothing in writing? Tricky situation. I know several people have said that Terris said "no tubes." Most lay people think of tubes down the throat, in your veins, etc. So I would have to think she meant a vent.

But no, I don't think it's cruel. Doesn't take long to pass out without O2. She'd be unconcious within seconds & die quickly. It's taking her days to die from starvation.

Exactly. If the issue is what Terri meant, how do we know that she meant no feeding tubes? I think most people who are not medically trained think of this as a ventilator. I know that I did before becoming more educated about living wills, etc.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Interesting. When did this happen?

I had an entire semester long seminar in capital punishment my last year in law school. I am gonna have to dig out my old notes!

[Kelly]

I think her best friend, one of the four who testified in the NUMEROUS and EXTENSIVE court proceedings, stated that Terri explicity stated "no feeding tubes". I do not know the circumstances because I cannot remember but they were either discussing a case or watching something together on tv and Terri commented that she would not want a feeding tube. Realistically, how many people sit down with their significant others and spell out..."I do not want a ventilator, I do not want hydration..I do not want a feeding tube". People speak in generalities about their feelings on subjects like this and the courts have found there is compelling evidence that Terri expressed to at least four people that she did not want to live like this.
My Mom died of cancer. She did not eat for the last three weeks of her life. That is part of the dying process. Did she starve to death? Probably but it was part of the dying process. Was it inhumane? She looked peaceful and pain free to me. My Mother also had no brain damage. I understand both sides but if this was the womans wish..who are we to say she has to stay alive in this situation? Especially the friggin politicians? They need to stay out of that stuff. I also think that if there was any chance at all that Terri could feel any pain, they would medicate her? There are also plenty of tests they can do to see if she reacts to pain.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by dissention

Oy, Patricia Heaton, you are a ****ing nut.

She just said that she's fasting on Good Friday to "show some solidarity" for Terri and her parents.

And now Mel Gibson is releasing press statements regarding this case.

That's interesting given I don't think that behavior is different from any other day for her. She has said that she starved herself to get thin. I wonder if she pumps her fist when someone is put to death? And how does she feel about the baby in Texas who had the plug pulled on him because he was poor, due to a bill signed by then governor Bush?

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Interesting. When did this happen?

Ford v. Wainwright (1986) = execution of the mentally ill (insane) violates the 8th amendment barring cruel and unusual punishment.

The Court has not yet accepted a case to determine whether a person who is mentally ill can be medicated to make them sane enough to be executed. A case had been appealed dealing with this issue, but the court refused to take the case.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I think her best friend, one of the four who testified in the NUMEROUS and EXTENSIVE court proceedings, stated that Terri explicity stated "no feeding tubes". I do not know the circumstances because I cannot remember but they were either discussing a case or watching something together on tv and Terri commented that she would not want a feeding tube. Realistically, how many people sit down with their significant others and spell out..."I do not want a ventilator, I do not want hydration..I do not want a feeding tube". People speak in generalities about their feelings on subjects like this and the courts have found there is compelling evidence that Terri expressed to at least four people that she did not want to live like this.

Actually, the court record shows that there were three people who testified about Terri's wish to not be on life support - Michael, Michael's brother and Michael's brother's wife. The guardian ad litem appointed for Terri by the court filed a report that recommended that the court NOT accept Michael's testimony as "clear and convincing" evidence because of his conflict of interest.

Interestingly, there was a friend of Terri's who testified that she and Terri discussed the case of Karen Ann Quinlan and Terri stated that there was no way that anyone could know what Karen wanted after the fact. However, the judge did not consider this to be applicable to what Terri would want for herself.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

That's interesting given I don't think that behavior is different from any other day for her. She has said that she starved herself to get thin. I wonder if she pumps her fist when someone is put to death? And how does she feel about the baby in Texas who had the plug pulled on him because he was poor, due to a bill signed by then governor Bush?

I used to really like her, but she's too loony nowadays. She's truly grating. I remember reading that Doris Roberts can't stand her and I don't blame her. I'm so sick of her "Hollywood Republican" schtick and her naive, uneducated beliefs regarding abortion and euthanasia.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I think her best friend, one of the four who testified in the NUMEROUS and EXTENSIVE court proceedings, stated that Terri explicity stated "no feeding tubes". I do not know the circumstances because I cannot remember but they were either discussing a case or watching something together on tv and Terri commented that she would not want a feeding tube. Realistically, how many people sit down with their significant others and spell out..."I do not want a ventilator, I do not want hydration..I do not want a feeding tube". People speak in generalities about their feelings on subjects like this and the courts have found there is compelling evidence that Terri expressed to at least four people that she did not want to live like this.
My Mom died of cancer. She did not eat for the last three weeks of her life. That is part of the dying process. Did she starve to death? Probably but it was part of the dying process. Was it inhumane? She looked peaceful and pain free to me. My Mother also had no brain damage. I understand both sides but if this was the womans wish..who are we to say she has to stay alive in this situation? Especially the friggin politicians? They need to stay out of that stuff. I also think that if there was any chance at all that Terri could feel any pain, they would medicate her? There are also plenty of tests they can do to see if she reacts to pain.

Sorry to hear about your mom. I hope that since she was terminally ill she was medicated & felt no pain. I hope they will medicate Terri also, despite the assumption that she can't feel.

And you're right - "how many people write exactly what they want..." Exactly the point. We should all learn a lesson from this terrible situation & write down exactly what we do & don't want in these circumstances.