Unbelievable

[CarneVaca]

If you understand the historical perspective, how can you make this statement:

Originally posted by jwd
It's just not fair.


Joe

Take the other crap aside. The fact is Affirmative Action exists to correct a wrong. And nothing could be more fair.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree - but the same could be said for the Irish, who were imported during the famine - they were actually cheaper to pay than slaves and they usually died which was a financial boon to the owner who did not then have to care for them in old age. So, why aren't they included in AA.

Oh, come on! You didn't just make that comparison. You can't possibly believe the experience is that similar. Take a look at Irish-descent people and African Americans now. How can you possibly draw a parallel between them?

All immigrant groups go through some sort of hardship. I know, I belong to one. But never in my wildest dreams would I compare myself to the slave experience. That's just silly.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I am never speechless darlin'

Marissa and I are having cocktails as we speak!!!!! Wish you were here!!!!

to both of you!

[jwd]

CarneVaca:
If you understand the historical perspective, how can you make this statement:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jwd
It's just not fair.


Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Take the other crap aside. The fact is Affirmative Action exists to correct a wrong. And nothing could be more fair.

It's not fair to the people it discriminates against. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Joe

[CarneVaca]

You still don't get it. It doesn't discriminate against anyone. It's correcting a wrong. It's that simple.

[jwd]

NO..... YOU DON'T GET IT! We can only hope that a white male relative of yours is denied admission to a school or a job because he's a white male. Now, that would be justice!

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Oh, come on! You didn't just make that comparison. You can't possibly believe the experience is that similar. Take a look at Irish-descent people and African Americans now. How can you possibly draw a parallel between them?

All immigrant groups go through some sort of hardship. I know, I belong to one. But never in my wildest dreams would I compare myself to the slave experience. That's just silly.

In Louisiana, the Irish were hauled into Amercia because their labor was cheaper than slaves because they would die (perhaps from yellow fever) instead of growing old, which required more care, which cost more money. I submit that is harsher than slavery (not all slave oweners were bad, my family 150 years ago had slaves and all of the legal documents from that era indicate when they were freed, they all got a portion of the land (rare I admit). So, I say, the Irish, not to mention the Chinese, who built the railroas on the cost of their lives, deserve AA protection under the current system.

In the end, I say all wrongs have been righted after about 40 years. I mean in theory when ever will be enough - 100 years 200 years, etc.? So, let's concentrate on the poor, which encompasses everyone.

Meant with respect and to provoke our usual debate as always my friend

[dissention]

Originally posted by jwd
NO..... YOU DON'T GET IT! We can only hope that a white male relative of yours is denied admission to a school or a job because he's a white male. Now, that would be justice!

I really don't think you get it. AA is needed not only to fix wrongdoings in the past, but to keep further wrongdoings from happening today and in the future. I think you're looking at it from only one side, the negative side, and are not fully comprehening the positive impact that AA has on society.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I really don't think you get it. AA is needed not only to fix wrongdoings in the past, but to keep further wrongdoings from happening today and in the future. I think you're looking at it from only one side, the negative side, and are not fully comprehening the positive impact that AA has on society.

But, the point I am making is that using AA as a mechanism "to keep further wrong doings from happening today and in the future" is not effective in that AA as it stands today is not inclusive enough. Rather, AA as it stands today benefits many (not all) people who have never had anything to with any selectively perceived and selected wrong. So, I say the debt for the past wrongs has been paid and to acheive the goal of preventing any wrong deeds in the furure, AA must be changed to include all of the poor regardless of race and race should never be considered a factor. I cannot see how that would not be fairer than saying one race regardless of means get a better chance over another race.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by jwd
NO..... YOU DON'T GET IT! We can only hope that a white male relative of yours is denied admission to a school or a job because he's a white male. Now, that would be justice!

OK, I can see from the maturity level of that remark that I've been wasting my time.

Good day.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
In Louisiana, the Irish were hauled into Amercia because their labor was cheaper than slaves because they would die (perhaps from yellow fever) instead of growing old, which required more care, which cost more money. I submit that is harsher than slavery (not all slave oweners were bad, my family 150 years ago had slaves and all of the legal documents from that era indicate when they were freed, they all got a portion of the land (rare I admit). So, I say, the Irish, not to mention the Chinese, who built the railroas on the cost of their lives, deserve AA protection under the current system.

In the end, I say all wrongs have been righted after about 40 years. I mean in theory when ever will be enough - 100 years 200 years, etc.? So, let's concentrate on the poor, which encompasses everyone.

Meant with respect and to provoke our usual debate as always my friend

Jason, I understand your point. What I can't agree with is that you are saying all wrongs have been righted. Look at the current experience of African Americans in comparison with other ethnic groups. By and large, they go through a period of suffering very serious hardships, then they seem to pick themselves up. Black folks have had a considerably different experience. Can anyone deny that?

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Jason, I understand your point. What I can't agree with is that you are saying all wrongs have been righted. Look at the current experience of African Americans in comparison with other ethnic groups. By and large, they go through a period of suffering very serious hardships, then they seem to pick themselves up. Black folks have had a considerably different experience. Can anyone deny that?

No, that race seems to be comparatively "worse" (for want of a better word). But, I guess I am looking at it from the point of view if things have not gotten better after the two or three generations, then the system needs to be reexamined and perhaps altered based on the results of the audit. Again, personally, I think advantage should be based on poverty to include all races, but I could easily be proved wrong by the results of such a study, etc.

[jwd]

strandinthewind:
But, the point I am making is that using AA as a mechanism "to keep further wrong doings from happening today and in the future" is not effective in that AA as it stands today is not inclusive enough. Rather, AA as it stands today benefits many (not all) people who have never had anything to with any selectively perceived and selected wrong. So, I say the debt for the past wrongs has been paid and to acheive the goal of preventing any wrong deeds in the furure, AA must be changed to include all of the poor regardless of race and race should never be considered a factor. I cannot see how that would not be fairer than saying one race regardless of means get a better chance over another race.

EXACTLY. Thank you Jason.


Joe

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Silverado was just the tip of the iceberg.
Did it ever occur to you that your boss's wife may simply have better credit and less personal debt? The Equal Credit Opportunity Act specifically prohibits lending or not lending to borrowers on the basis of gender, race, religion, naitonal origin, marital status or age. So if in fact what you are saying is correct then the owners of your company have the basis for one hell of a lawsuit against whomever told them that she could get a better rate and more credit because she was a woman. Do they have it in writing?

Being just an employee I do not know their personal details, just that it was a business decision by them as equal partners to make her the majority owner and register as a corporation. We are able to apply as a minority owned company with the County of Allegheney for project bidding incentives and other benefits. And, no, it is not because of a better credit rating on her part, at least as far as I was told.

Where is the hypocricy?

Rob

[Jason T.]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I wholeheartedly agree that things often get taken too far when "protecting" a minority group from discrimination, but, folks should try putting themselves in the shoes of said minority group.

I mean, seriously, how bad do white male Republicans really have it, for example? Are they denied housing? Do people shun them when they move into the neighborhood? Are their kids harrassed at school for "being different"? Are they turned down for employment because of negative stereotypes about the work ethic of their "people"?

To me, the complaints come off like a spoiled child who's always had his way, and now realizes that he's no longer ruling the roost.
And I am a white male (though, being that I'm gay, I'm also a "minority").

Personally though, I don't think anyone should be treated any better than anyone else... we should ALL have the exact same rights and benefits.
Unfortunately, some people have been treated as second-class citizens (or worse) for so long, that overcompensation often exists as organizations search for a way to "make it all better."

Frankly, I dream of a world where we no longer have to have these types of discussions... because everyone is treated EQUALLY.

Exactly! Another incredible entry from Johnny Stew.