The Ledge's Monthly Approval of President Obama-Do You Approve??? August 2009

[LikeAWillow]

Let's head to a galaxy far, far away together.. the original question posed in this thread.

I'm not sure how I feel about Obama right now.

On the Economy:

What I like: The stimulus plan was based on Keynesian economic theory, and I dig that, because good old Johnny was right, in the long run, we're all dead. What I don't like: Wasted opportunities in the ways those theories are put to work. We're at the dawn of the environmental age, the idea of green "shovel-ready" projects could have, with thought, time, and dear god, innovation, propelled America forward while creating not only new jobs but new fields. Cash for Clunkers doesn't quite measure up to the infinite potential that was available.

On healthcare:

What I like: I believe in the power of the free market, save for the case of a market failure, and I don't think anyone can argue that the American healthcare market hasn't failed. A public option that keeps private plans alive could bridge that failure. Away from the logic of it and more towards the feeling, I just can't help but think that if we Americans are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then access to decent healthcare IS one of our rights. Hey, the transitive property has never done me wrong before. What I don't like: To sound like a broken record, I'm just not convinced the execution of the plan would match the sound theory on which it's based, and healthcare isn't much like love. I'd rather never have gotten into bed with it then had our go around and lost. Oh, 1993.

I was going to continue with on the wars and social issues, but I'm bored.

Have an article on Howard Dean's balls instead:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_258813.html

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Have an article on Howard Dean's balls instead:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_258813.html

That guy is so out of touch with the American public, it's not even funny. He even used that interview to plug his book.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Let's head to a galaxy far, far away together.. the original question posed in this thread.

wait, this thread had a point?

I'm not sure how I feel about Obama right now.

On the Economy:

What I like: The stimulus plan was based on Keynesian economic theory, and I dig that, because good old Johnny was right, in the long run, we're all dead.

yeah, it was based on keynesian economics, but from what i have heard/read, even keynesian economists are against the stimulus package because it was just too small to do any good. go big or go home, right? obama tried to straddle the fence. epic fail.

Away from the logic of it and more towards the feeling, I just can't help but think that if we Americans are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then access to decent healthcare IS one of our rights.

i agree that americans are entitled to those things. i mean, i didn't come up with it on my own, but i agree.

the thing is - we're not entitled to happiness itself, or anything else that falls under the big ugly "american dream." we're entitled to the pursuit of it. just as no one is entitled to absolute equality, but we are entitled to equality of opportunity. fairly reasonable health care in the US, however flawed, is attainable. into young adulthood (20-21ish), i had great health care. my copay for my shrink was $7 and my copay at my GP was $0. but i made some choices (quit school, gave up my job, moved across the country) that led me to not have insurance. does it suck? yeah. it makes me really nervous. but in light of those choices i made, i can't say that i am entitled to insurance, since i gave it up.

i'm not lecturing you or anything, you just brought up some interesting points to riff on.

Hey, the transitive property has never done me wrong before.

wanna make out?

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Have an article on Howard Dean's balls instead:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_258813.html

ugh. what an ass. i don't get what the big rush is RIGHT NOW to pass this legislation. it is ill-timed, for one thing, and who even has time to read the damn bill, think about it, and make a decision in all this madness?

i'll see your howard dean and raise you a camille paglia.

goddammit, camille, you're bat **** crazy but i can't quit you.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/...lls/index.html

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by carrie721

ugh. what an ass.

We frickin agree!

[carrie721]

are we really having a political discussion without strand or gldstwmn? where are they?

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by carrie721

are we really having a political discussion without strand or gldstwmn? where are they?

Yes, I think Dean is a lunatic.

[David]

Originally Posted by carrie721

are we really having a political discussion without strand or gldstwmn? where are they?

Yeah, where is that strand?!

This healthcare debate gives me a headache. Everyone on TV is talking in vagueries, in generalities, in meandering non sequiturs. People should start talking about what they themselves want -- in straightforward, plain English.

I'd like to be able to buy my own insurance policy on the open market -- a policy that offers me roughly the same level of coverage that I get from my group employer plan. Let's say my employer takes $200 out of my salary each month to pay my premiums for the group plan. I'd like to be able to keep that $200 myself & use it to buy my own open-market plan, one that would travel with me as I move (voluntarily or involuntarily) from job to job, so that I wouldn't have to worry about turning down good jobs with minimal or no coverage & I wouldn't have to worry about signing up for COBRA in a layoff & I wouldn't have to worry about pre-existing condition exclusions that would lock me right out of coverage.

By its nature, of course, group plans are less expensive than individual plans. But I'd be willing to pay a third or even a half more if it meant I would never again have to worry about losing coverage if I lost my job, & I wouldn't have to worry about going without coverage for 30 or 60 or 90 days when I get a new job, before all my benefits kick in.

What do you want from healthcare? I want hospitals, clinics & physicians' offices to START USING the bloody Internet, including e-mail, in administering patient records & testing & procedural reports. It's a scandal -- it's pure idiocy -- that we get crappy, illegible photocopies of our procedural reports to hand-carry back to our GP or on to our next specialist. WHY CAN'T THOSE WRITEUPS BE SCANNED ON A FLATBED SCANNER & THEN ATTACHED TO AN E-MAIL TO ANOTHER PHYSICIAN?! It's absolutely ridiculous, the amount of photocopying & snail-mailing & hand-carrying that are required from all of us now. The physician is paying that front-office help to prepare all that, which takes ten times as long -- & is ten times as prone to error -- as it would take to SCAN & ATTACH!

I also want competition. I want two, three, or FOUR endoscopy centers to vie for my business when my specialist orders a procedure for me. I want to be able to call each of them & ask, "How much do you charge?" Let them compete for MY business. That's the only fair & reliable way to handle what is after all a business transaction.

[Ghost_Tracker]

I definitely approve of a poll on The Ledge about everyone's "approval of President Obama."

lol! No really, I answered "approve" but - - -

I'd really like to see some forward movement on this Health Care thing. And in my opinion, he needs to start "learning the ropes" a little faster. (In his defense, Clinton said it took him a year simply to learn the freaking job, and he has a 180 I.Q.! ) But just for example, it seems to me that at first he was talking about how it's going to be done by the end of the summer - everyone's reaction was like "that ain't gonna happen" and he was like, "well, yes it IS!" Now we shockingly find out that it probably won't be done until the end of the year, or early next year. Meanwhile he's taking on all this other stuff simultaneously, and in my opinion working on things that are relatively less important - - the "cash for clunkers" program for example. While that may have benefitted some people, it seems to me that he needs to learn to focus, and to keep his attention on the essential. He's arguably a person who has a lot of abilities, and I'm sure he's used to doing many things at once with a lot of success. But he needs to learn that he can't do that here.
I like to watch the tv show "The West Wing" a lot. The President - played by Martin Sheen - always has a grandfather clock going in the Oval Office, to remind him that "the clock's ticking." They often use this to great dramatic effect in the show.
One of the things they've shown very well, I feel, is that a President is easily distracted, and all of a sudden it's four or eight years later and none of the significant goals have been accomplished. I feel that Obama's starting to fall into that trap. He needs to pick 2 or 3 major things and focus almost exclusively on those. Health Care could be a real "ace in the hole" for him; and i.m.o. he should focus most of his energy and time on accomplishing that one goal by early next year. THEN he can work on other things. Sure, the economy's in trouble, but I'm not sure there's much more he can do right now, and besides he's got a treasury secretary and other people for that. He's gotta focus.

[rubytuesday]

Just about NHS. Everyone thinks its so left wing but what they don't understand is that even the most right wing Tory wouldn't pull apart the NHS. It would be like if they put through a law making primary and secondary school only for those who pay thousands upfront. There would riots in the streets! It isn't a left wing socialist thing. Thatcher didn't tear down NHS not because it wouldn't be popular but because when you have such a system, as long as its a democratic government even a right wing one would see how ridiculous it would be going backwards into a worse system. And believe me Thatcher was right wing!!

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by carrie721

wait, this thread had a point?



yeah, it was based on keynesian economics, but from what i have heard/read, even keynesian economists are against the stimulus package because it was just too small to do any good. go big or go home, right? obama tried to straddle the fence. epic fail.

Exactly. The numbers do show that what he did was enough to hold the economy from spiraling downward any farther, but to roughly quote Keynes himself, the government should be paying people to dig holes and fill them back up at times like this. Obviously it's an exaggeration to prove a point, but if you're going to attempt to fix things with a Keynesian strategy, it's exactly like you said: go big or go home. Maybe if a little more of the stimulus package had actually made it into action....

i agree that americans are entitled to those things. i mean, i didn't come up with it on my own, but i agree.

the thing is - we're not entitled to happiness itself, or anything else that falls under the big ugly "american dream." we're entitled to the pursuit of it. just as no one is entitled to absolute equality, but we are entitled to equality of opportunity. fairly reasonable health care in the US, however flawed, is attainable. into young adulthood (20-21ish), i had great health care. my copay for my shrink was $7 and my copay at my GP was $0. but i made some choices (quit school, gave up my job, moved across the country) that led me to not have insurance. does it suck? yeah. it makes me really nervous. but in light of those choices i made, i can't say that i am entitled to insurance, since i gave it up.

i'm not lecturing you or anything, you just brought up some interesting points to riff on.

Ah, I should have been more clear. A system that denies the ill the ability to recover based on their financial status is, in effect, a system that denies the right to life, not to the pursuit of happiness (which I would never confuse for happiness itself, or I would be severely lacking in the angsty Nicks songs I love.)

wanna make out?

MAYBE IF YOU DON'T MOVE TO MY DREAM TOWN WITHOUT ME

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Exactly. The numbers do show that what he did was enough to hold the economy from spiraling downward any farther, but to roughly quote Keynes himself, the government should be paying people to dig holes and fill them back up at times like this. Obviously it's an exaggeration to prove a point, but if you're going to attempt to fix things with a Keynesian strategy, it's exactly like you said: go big or go home. Maybe if a little more of the stimulus package had actually made it into action....

yeah, i think you're right that the package as we know it was not the ideal. who knows what could have happened.

Ah, I should have been more clear. A system that denies the ill the ability to recover based on their financial status is, in effect, a system that denies the right to life, not to the pursuit of happiness (which I would never confuse for happiness itself, or I would be severely lacking in the angsty Nicks songs I love.)

i get what you were saying, i was just riffing on the life/liberty quote.

these days, i'm not so sure that it is the government's responsibility to take care of the people in this sense. as far as the mentally ill and people who literally can't take care of themselves, of course there needs to be some system in place to help them. but the rest of the population? i don't know. i need to do some more thinking/reading on the matter.

MAYBE IF YOU DON'T MOVE TO MY DREAM TOWN WITHOUT ME

if my evil plan goes as i anticipate, i'll still be here when you grajeeate.

oh, and re: healthcare, here's an update.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

[LikeAWillow]

There's also an op-ed written by Obama in the nytimes today, but, like most of his speeches, it doesn't really SAY much

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16obama.html

[Ghost_Tracker]

Honest Injun Opinion -

I want to see Obama stop with the bull**** not-actually-all-that-controversial controversial photo-ops
while giving "speeches" to school kids about how studying is important. The election's more than three
years away and he needs to stop campaigning and start focusing. And he needs to stop spending
tens of millions of dollars flying all over the country talking about saving money.
Most of all, I feel that he needs to focus. This health care situation i.m.o.
is dire. There's going to be tens of millions of baby boomers aging now,
and many of them are going to need tens of thousands, or even hundreds of
thousands or millions of dollars, worth of care. If we don't fix this then the
economy really is going to tank. BIG time. For a very long period of time.
China's just biding their time right now, WAITING for that to happen.
Obama, i.m.o., is spreading himself WAY to thin. I understand the thinking
behind it but I think his advisors are just plain wrong. If I were his "boss" -
and as a voter, I am his boss in a way - - - I would be saying to him right about now,
"I want to see some RESULTS here!" I don't want to hear, "Congress isn't cooperating."
I don't want to hear, "The lobbyists are just too strong." He campaigned on being able to
negotiate and persuade and "cross the aisle" and he campaigned on his relative inexperience
being a non-issue.
The honeymoon's over, the jellybeans are starting to pile up in the jar and it's time
for him to get health care reform through Congress. Even if he needs to beg, borrow and steal to do it.
That's the job. If he can't do it, America will find somebody who can, and he can go become a Full
Professor at Harvard and hit the $10,000 per hour lecture circuit and get the multi-million dollar book deal.