Lindsey AUS Article

[Cammie]

Agreed...Lindsey speaks in the present moment
and isn't always so clever at "weighing" his words!!!
He may have been caught at a bad time...like he may
have been tired...sick with the flu or forgot his meds!
We all have off days!!! We fans tear his words apart
because we want to understand the Genius in Lindsey!

Les and Christy, Well said!!! You both have a knack we
lack to use the right words!Love Our Lindsey Music!Sky

[CarneVaca]

Gerald, I've read your longing references to the lack of real drums on Out of the Cradle. This may seem crazy, but I think that if you put the traditional bass-and-drum backbeat on some of those songs, they would lose something. I remember playing "Soul Drifter" for my then-girlfriend and she said, "Nice song, but it would work better as a bluesier number." I didn't get what she meant at the time, but later I realized she was referring to the backbeat. It's thin. But it's supposed to be, and it works.

You're probably familiar with World Party. Karl Wallinger uses a similar approach to some songs. Occasionally he dumps the bass altogether.

Lindsey wanted to produce an album in which the guitar was the center of everything, and not the power-chord distorted guitar, mind you, it was a more gentle sound. Where I think it failed was on "Turn It On." I love the message, but the song is wimpy. It needs some "Go Your Own Way"-type power chords, to my ear. The same is true of "Temporary One" in The Dance. Not enough punch. But the near-misses are so few that I tend to forgive Lindsey for them.

Part of the reason Out of the Cradle is so brilliant is because it gives you what you didn't expect. After Tango, I thought we'd get a few more "Carolines" and "Tangos." But from note one on Cradle, Lindsey puts you on notice that he's taking a left turn. First you get that amazing finger-picked intro, then the island rhythm, then a chorus that completely throws everything off kilter. And then you get "Wrong." Then the ear-piercing guitar shrieks of "Countdown." There is not a low point in that album until "Doing What I Can" and "Turn It On."

Does Out of the Cradle lack maleness? I don't know. I don't think about it in those terms. But it sure is a courageous piece of work.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You're probably familiar with World Party. Karl Wallinger uses a similar approach to some songs. Occasionally he dumps the bass altogether.

I'll come back on the posts of you and trackaghost tomorrow, I read them just before going to sleep. But I just have to say that I used to LOVE Worldparty, but I must admit that some of Wallingers songs lost their power for me. Maybe because he's doing what you describe. I have to relisten before stating that. That'll be joyful. Thanks for reminding me of an old love!

gerald

[face of glass]

A conscious attempt to hijack the thread will lead nowhere.

J/k. I once again raise my hat to David and Les who brought in some points that I couldn't have made.

Originally posted by shackin’up
Nobody ever responded on my repetative comments on the friggin' emotionless drumsound on that album. If he had used mick on that one it could have reached so many more people...

Not to intentionally nitpick again Gerald, but I don’t think anyone can attribute the commercial failure of something to one specific detail. Then we might as well blame it all on Mick's book.

Originally posted by trackaghost
I think if I had discovered Lindsey later I wouldn't like him so much. It goes back to Out Of The Cradle, which many consider Lindsey's definitive work. I still can't get around that polished sound.

Yeah, you already explained to me why you don’t like that “blinding sheen”. I won’t push you there or anything. I’m just not that big on the “certain sound ideal debate” (by this I mean the production on the mixing board, not the actual arrangements). I may think The Stooges’ Raw Power (the Iggy Pop remix, not the original David Bowie one) is an ideal rock and roll album in its sound but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the different sound that releases by Hüsker Dü or the Pixies or the Birthday Party have. Earlier you spoke of Lindsey smothering away all the personality from OOTC. I think his personality is all over it and there’s no moment when it leaves me. You said that there’s no rawness on that one. I think there is, not just on “Wrong”, “This Is The Time” and “Street Of Dreams” but in the unusual treatments he gives to “Don’t Look Down”, “Surrender The Rain”, “Doing What I Can” and others. I can often imagine him sitting in the studio planning the track list; throwing something like “Soul Drifter” in there and then deciding to follow that with “TITT”. That’s how he worked on SYW too, starting the album with “What’s The World Coming To” gave people the impression of the “good, old” Mac. At that point he probably thinks: “You liked that? How about this one?” and grins when he pictures the reactions some people will have to “Murrow”. Following “Peacekeeper” with “Come” is another of those tricks. Exactly what Les wrote about.

I still don't think anything he's done is that leftfield. His most experimental work in fact, is with the band, rather than outside it, on the album Tusk.

And that was because there was no other end which to use as a balance for Rumours. Shake off most of the people who bought the album and you're bound to have only the real fans left. Like I've said, everything he's done after Tusk has been a compromise of the sound ideals of it and Rumours. There hasn't truly been a need for another Tusk since he has other sides in himself too.

And I still think the likes of Trouble, Slow Dancing, Go Insane and Countdown, to name but a few are as poppy as it gets. But maybe that's just me...

If you equal "poppy" with "catchy", then fine. Of course I've never seen you speaking of Stevie being "poppy". Is she above all that then?

Yeah, yeah, I’m biased. Don’t tell me.

I much prefer the sound of a band playing in a room together (which is why I love going to gigs so much), which is essentially what you get on a lot of Stevie's solo outings.

I think it seriously lessened with RAL and on TOSOTM I can’t get it at all. And it ain’t really there on Street Angel and TISL either.
You think it’s a band playing when there’s a bunch of studio musicians on every track? You think it’s a real band when usually the whole thing is done through overdubs with no one actually playing at the same time? You think it’s a real band when they’ve been told to tone down their personalities so that they wouldn’t overwhelm the main star? Yeah right. There’s no true musical communication between the players. They play away and go away, hardly ever seeing most of the other musicians ever again. That isn’t my idea of a band at all.

Also I had a lot of friends who discovered Stevie after the likes of Courtney Love, Redd Kross (who covered Rhiannon) and Smashing Pumpkins began to declare their love for her. She's still not cool cool, but certainly a lot of so-called cool people came out of the Stevie fan closet.

Where are your friends now, if not at this forum? How many people around here are Nicksfans and have fed on indie music for a long period of time? You, I, Cliffdweller, CarneVaca? That’s four people out of the 150 or so that regularly post at the Ledge. I don’t know if it’s directly comparable to the real amount of such fans vs. all Nicksfans but I’m not going to start believing that there’s a huge amount of those people out there. You’d think that if they had genuine interest they’d be here too.

Also, you should notice that you’ve only listed bands that are labelled as “grunge”. All these people emerged from America around the same time. So they liked Stevie Nicks, good for them. But how didn’t other subcultures of music start to mention her as a guru of sorts? How many UK bands you have heard thanking SN of her influence to their music? It’s not like she became that cool all of a sudden. And why didn’t the bands that emerged after them keep on mentioning her? Why did it stop that fast?

I also believe that none of those artists mentioned Stevie’s recent work, TOSOTM, Street Angel or even RAL at all. They mainly spoke of her work with FM, maybe also of Bella Donna and The Wild Heart. Yeah, so they appreciated the likes of “Landslide” but I think they mainly concentrated on the wild image that Stevie had at the time. By her influence they meant the exorcism of her vocals on “Rhiannon” and “Sisters Of The Moon”, of her primal performing power up to the RAL tour, for instance. That’s where she was the equal of Patti Smith in intensity. Not with the post 1986 work though. If someone wants to drag in the “subtlety” argument then he/she would have to prove that the artists mentioned spoke of it too.

(Sidenote to the few Americans that are still reading this: In Europe Peter Green is considered a lot cooler than anything released by the Rumours-era FM).

…the Melody Maker book Unknown Pleasures…

You still haven’t heard the album that gave the book its title, have you?

"Only when time enough had elapsed for the punk-indoctrination to fade, and I could actually listen to forbidden fruit (eg Led Zeppelin), did I actually buy Tusk, along with pretty much everything else Stevie had breathed on. I'd gotten this mad notion that Nicks' lachrymal lump-in-throat (headful of snow?) voice was a precedent for the clotted, inconsolable-ness of Kristen Hersh."

Ok, I wanna marry that guy. I can write like him too!

He goes on to gush about Sara, Storms and Beautiful Child and calls her a precursor to the likes of Hersh, Liz Fraser and Natalie Merchant. He praises Lindsey's defiant stance with Tusk, but choses to make Nicks the indie hero (or should that be heroine) of the piece.

First of all, if she’s the heroine of Tusk when she has only written a quarter of the songs and is singing harmony audibly on four additional ones (which at places are even altered) then Reynolds is intentionally focusing on SN. It’s good he isn’t ignoring Lindsey’s songs entirely though.

Secondly that quote makes it obvious that he’s very drawn in by Stevie’s performing qualities. If he felt the need to buy “everything else Stevie had breathed on”, then it’s obvious that he’s at least close to being a fan, even though he must have known that her solo albums don’t even resemble the sound of Tusk. According to that quote it’s Stevie's performance he’s focusing on. I don’t know if he mentions Lindsey’s contributions to Stevie’s songs at all but if he doesn’t then for me his opinion is off balance. Then he is as ignorant as many FM fans.

Stevie pulls many people in because of her unique lyrics + voice + chords = performance thing. Artists who operate on that principle, artists whose lyrics can be directly related to their lives, often manage to pull in very passionate fans. I know Lindsey doesn’t have that quality in his voice. He’s compensated for that in other areas but a lot of it still tends to be unfairly dismissed.

And there’s one more reason why she was supposedly sorted out as the indie heroine. It’s because of the life she lived, the stories of constant abuse throughout the years. You know that for many it’s a huge part of the whole package; it’s the whole romantic decadence and excess that many, including the rock press, love. Syd Barrett’s and Peter Green’s mental illness, Ian Curtis’ and Kurt Cobain’s suicides, Nick Drake’s and Jeff Buckley’s premature deaths, Nick Cave’s and Lou Reed’s open drug use, David Bowie’s homosexuality and hints at Nazism, etc, etc. A lot of people just adore this stuff. Some even start looking for direct references to these from the lyrics. They love it when they can directly relate a particular phrase into an actual experience. Stevie fits this general idea of a decadent rock star.

It isn’t surprising that Courtney Love and Billy Corgan, both who have tried to imitate that lifestyle, namechecked and even covered Stevie. They didn’t just appreciate her music, they also saw her as an example of sorts.

And just a second, Reynolds actually mentioned Liz Fraser in there? Hmm, he might actually be onto something.

Paper chase is on, these are on my speed; for he warbled, bought arachnophobe on the tiara, by the gin's rack, paper chase is on, these are on my space.

From The Cocteau Twins’ “Persephone”. That’s obvious Stevie Nicks influence alright.

I know you compared Stevie's TOSOTM to Tina Turner or someone, but I assure you when that record came out it sounded unique. Maybe it sounds mainstream now, but Rooms On Fire stood out in the top 20. I remember when Stevie appeared on Top Of The Pops, how odd and cool it sounded.

First of all the success of TOSOTM was a by-product of the success of Tango In The Night, just like it was with Behind The Mask. It doesn’t surprise me at all that she hasn’t had any significant solo success in the UK outside of that one.

Maybe that TOTP appearance stood out for a 14-year-old SN fan who probably didn’t have the widest possible experience in music at the time. I’m not belittling your experience but is it not possible that you’re being a bit nostalgic here?
So what did TOSOTM introduce to the world? The generic “romantic” acoustic guitars? More opportunities for Kenny G to play bland wallpaper solos? An opportunity for Rupert Hine to engulf Stevie with his sound? That’s all the backing tracks of that album are for me. I don’t hate anything in there but I won’t start believing that it’s the supposed “Queen of Rock” singing on the album. “Long Way To Go” is the only attempt to rock out, much like “Fall From Grace” on TISL. Queen of Indie Rock? More like the Queen of MOR.

And OOTC is “very mainstream” while TOSOTM isn’t?

Maybe Lindsey doesn't get enough credit, but I don't see why anyone has to take the credit away from Stevie in order to give Lindsey his dues.

Because it’s largely his arrangements, his guitars and his ideas in the backing track. It’s the 50 - 50 credit between LB and SN on Stevie’s songs for me and will always be. It was with him when Stevie defined the borders of her career and she certainly hasn’t been stepping over those much.

Lindsey’s arrangements speak to me as much as Stevie’s voice. If they don’t to you then you will appreciate Stevie more. No problem there, but certain semi-facts (since we can never be totally sure) should be taken into account.

And the other thing is that Lindsey has released far less records than Stevie. Maybe if he had a higher output there would be more to criticise (and I don't think this has anything to do with quality control, so lets not even go there!).

I could tread the water with the following arguments:

A) Stevie makes records out of habit; she’s always made records, she just doesn’t know how to stop making them.
B) Buckingham releases a record only when he has the inner need to do it.
C) Besides, that statement is to underestimate Lindsey’s production work yet again. He spends a lot more time in the studio than Stevie does; after all the lady has often preferred just to put the vocals on the track. If we truly wanted to compare their work we’d have to include all of Lindsey's production work too.

Ok, I don’t believe in A) myself. I believe she’s still out there because she has the inner need too.

This wasn't written in order to remove all the indie credibility from Stevie. I think her voice does have qualities that can go over the rigid genre borders. I think Lindsey's production skills have that too.

Damn, I hate writing long posts.

*tries to hide his sadomasochistic grin*

[chiliD]

Originally posted by face of glass
...Kurt Cobain’s suicide...

I will forever believe he was murdered, either directly or indirectly by Courtney.

[wondergirl9847]

Please don't leave!! I realize that people post stuff that irks us, but don't leave because of one person!

[Johnny Stew]

I also hope you don't go anywhere, Sharon.

Sometimes people will post things that raise our hackles... but that's all the more reason to stay around and express our opinion, in turn.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by trackaghost
I'm not trying to be horrible or anything ChiliD, but how is that relevant to this thread?

"faceofglass" posted SOMEWHERE in that LONNNNNNNNG post making some reference to Kurt Cobain dying due to "suicide", I don't believe it WAS suicide, so I chose to directly reply to that one comment. THAT is why it is relevant.

Once threads get going, they take on a life of their own, I think. If threads didn't "stray" every now & then, they'd be awfully boring....to me anyway.

Originally posted by trackaghost
Just a warning folks, I am seriously pissed off now.
{snip/edit}
This post has pissed me off more than any of the others. Maybe it’s time to make my exit on this board.

Who DOESN'T get pissed off around here every so often? I don't think one could be human and NOT, ya know?

I think your bailing out is drastic, but like everything in "cycles", you'll come back again. Heck, I couldn't stay away.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by trackaghost

This post has pissed me off more than any of the others. Maybe it’s time to make my exit on this board.

Hey there! Do what you have to do, but who can I agree with so often then?
PACKIN'UP, SHACKIN'UP's all you wanna do...
(not that going over to Neil's is shackin'up....)

Come on, sharon, I don't let you go away by a selfindulged, but funny butthead of a Fin.....who did not see in my 365 posts that I had my share of Indie, too. (yes gaius that makes 5 of us!) And I know that there are a lot more on the ledge. But not so many who show off so often....And I agree with you, on 80% of your posts, and of 40 or 50% of those from Gaius. It is possible.

Stay.

gerald

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Does Out of the Cradle lack maleness? I don't know. I don't think about it in those terms. But it sure is a courageous piece of work.

Yes, a very courageous work. It doesn't lack maleness, nor femaleness. I miss dynamics in the Sound. I miss a gross edge in the production.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Where I think it failed was on "Turn It On."

True, but in essence, I love the song. But it would have been so much better with a kickass drumtrack, even without the powerchords. It's a song with a drive, but the drive is phoney-sounding. That's what I mean. If mick hadn't played on WTWCT, and you picture the same beatsound from OOTC on that one, it would have been a wimpy song, too.
But I still belt out Turn it on when I'm vacuumcleaning the room

Originally posted by CarneVaca But from note one on Cradle, Lindsey puts you on notice that he's taking a left turn. First you get that amazing finger-picked intro, then the island rhythm, then a chorus that completely throws everything off kilter. And then you get "Wrong." Then the ear-piercing guitar shrieks of "Countdown."

Yes, don't get me wrong; in the guitarparts and the songwriting the whole friggin' album is a masterpiece. That's not the point here. I just don't get it when you say the choice of him is to have the thing more guitaroriented means that you just let the drums sound like you and I could have played it in acid-pro on a rainy afternoon.

And I'm sure he would have never sold millions of the record, but he could have reached a lot more people who were into alternative pop back then if he made the album sound more raw underneath those fantastic guitarparts, sounds and vocallayering.
The songs were strong enough for it, it just had this slick aftertaste in a time where the vedders, cobains, cornells and those angry men against machines ruled the musicworld. And I think this album could have been a part of that "indie becoming mainstream"-era.

gerald

[dissention]

Originally posted by face of glass
*Sees Dissention waving the war-axe and ducks*)

LMAO!

[face of glass]

Originally posted by trackaghost
I’ve never said she wasn’t poppy, I’ve never even said she is above criticism or that all her albums are great, just that I like them more. But whatever…

That was just an indistinct attempt at a joke. I’ve seen some people here totally dismiss the title track of “Say You Will”. They think it’s annoyingly catchy and sickeningly poppy, or something along those lines. Then they start praising something like “Welcome To The Room…Sara” because it’s “not catchy” and it’s “deep” and “artistic”. I personally think that writing a song like “SYW” is far more difficult than writing a song like “WTTR…S”. And I also don’t particularly appreciate opinions of that type that those people have because it can directly lead to the thought that if you don’t get “WTTR…S” then you don’t get Stevie and her artistry. That she’s supposedly above all that pop crap and then when something like the title track of “SYW” comes out it’s a shock. Thank God I’ve never seen Stevie adopting the same attitude as those fans.

But I guess you’ve never seen those discussions so I shouldn’t have tried to joke about them. My mistake, I’m sorry.

I do notice in the Lindsey forum, hardcore fans of Mr B often belittle Stevie while praising their man. In the Stevie forum, I’ve never seen that happen. Maybe I’m wrong.

I haven’t tried to belittle Stevie at all. Some of her solo music tends to be inadequate for me and this isn’t supposed to be anything more than an exorcism of an inner demon of mine. I feel the woman’s pull and at the same time there can be things that can turn me off. It’s my problem, not anyone else’s. I try to raise valid points and I always get equally valid ones as replies. And I love good conversations like that.

The only one besides me that I’ve seen taking Lindsey’s side (and not even close to my level) in the Buckingham vs. Nicks battle is CarneVaca. Sure, I’ve seen a few people at this board making a few swipes at Stevie but the Nicksfans have always given the same stuff back at Lindsey. I’ve never thought it’s been out of hatred towards LB or SN, I think it’s just a little bit of mischievous humour. It’s different when it gets to Stevie’s weight, for instance, but I’ve never seen that stuff posted in the LB board. I did find the following from the Lindsey forum though, and I’ve never seen any fans of Lindsey going over to the Stevie forum to start something like this:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...?threadid=7078

Maybe you think it’s braver to criticize the person under the forum that carries his/her name. Just so you know, my first post at the Ledge was right here criticizing Lindsey’s approach to live performances nowadays. And I was the sole opposite voice at Stevie’s board when we discussed the quality of her recent songwriting. So I certainly am not trying to do any back-stabbing here.

Nancy wrote about this topic at her own board too. Some of it probably isn’t all suitable for the LB board of the Ledge but here’s a part of it anyway:

Originally posted by sodascouts (but not at the Ledge)
There are also a few who have this idea that Lindsey reads boards and that the above views would please him, so they are quick to declare that they think the same way. I'm completely serious. This, I believe, is ludicrous since Lindsey recognizes Stevie's talen, and would NOT be impressed or approve of anyone degrading her, even if they did so in order to "lift up" Lindsey by comparison.

And I agree with that 100%. If some have that illusion Nancy is talking about then it doesn’t lead to anything good.

I much prefer the sound of a band playing in a room together (which is why I love going to gigs so much), which is essentially what you get on a lot of Stevie's solo outings.

I never said it was a real band. Why are you putting words into my mouth? I said it SOUNDS more like a real band

Maybe you didn’t say that but I read it the wrong way.

Originally posted by face of glass
I still care for RAL, TOSOTM, SA and TISL and I think they all have good qualities but the group statement that FM had and even BD and TWH had to some extent, was gone.

Originally posted by face of glass
I think it seriously lessened with RAL and on TOSOTM I can’t get it at all. And it ain’t really there on Street Angel and TISL either.

Originally posted by trackaghost
Jesus, she has Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and members of the E street band for heaven’s sake playing on her first two records! Pretty ****ing amazing session players, if you want to call them that.

I never stated BD and TWH were completely devoid of a “real band”. I was speaking of the work done after those two.

I think TISL has more of a band feel that anything Lindsey has done on his own.
Maybe your idea of a band sound is different to mine I don’t know.

It probably is. It seems to me that TISL has at least six permutations of a band in it and it is because of Chris Lord-Alge’s work that the album seems cohesive. Not that it necessarily proves anything, but the long preparation of that album wouldn’t exactly seem to be the ideal approach if they truly wanted to achieve that band feel.

A “band feel” is definitely subjective. TISL isn’t my idea of it. In a band one is supposed to react to what the others are playing and be willing to see what comes next. It’s supposed to be the full presence of personal playing and the other players’ acceptance of that and the skills to incorporate the personal quirks into the whole soundscape. In FM, when John hit his bass during the beginning of the build-up in the good old live “Rhiannon”, that one stroke per bar spoke to me a lot more than any instrumental passage on TISL. He was capable of capturing the sound of the entire band into something that simple.

I just don’t think TISL has any of that. It’s a solo album where no one is supposed to overshadow Stevie. Yeah, there are great backing bands out there and stuff but many of the players have often had some kind of “therapy ensembles” where they could play the stuff they really wanted to play instead of just backing someone. You feel differently and I accept that. I don’t care about the band feel on Lindsey’s albums because he didn’t really need it for a long time. It was solely about his personality after all.

No Gaius, some people just don’t post on message boards all the time (and I’m starting to envy them)

If this is a swipe at me and you’re assuming that I spend a lot of time sweating and trying to come up with responses for this board then you’re wrong. I don’t take this all that seriously; this is mostly stream of consciousness and tongue-in-cheek (at least some of it is supposed to be). Sometimes I edit it a bit later, sometimes I don’t. Like I’ve said, I don’t exactly have the time right now to hang around here that often. Just as long as I don’t get addicted I should be safe.

Just because they aren’t here doesn’t make them all less a fan. Your point seems completely invalid to me.

Yeah, it’s invalid. I was just interested in knowing whether there are that many fans of both Stevie and alternative music around here or not.

*Yawn* I was going to mention Whiskeytown and Ryan Adams, who has often mentioned Stevie as being cool too. There are others as well. A singer songwriter from England from the PJ Harvey mould called Amanda Ghost, talked about what a massive Stevie fan she is I recall. I’ve seen others too but frankly I’m getting tired of this.

Keep on going if you feel like it. I’m interested in all this.

Are you trying to say Lindsey is the great indie hero and Stevie is not? Fine, because the only so-called indie act I’ve heard citing his influence is Camper Van Beethoven.

Add also Jerry Cantrell of Alice In Chains, although it most likely isn’t a direct influence. And I’m not trying to say he’s the great hero, but he could potentially be if those circles were willing to give him a proper chance.

That’s an assumption on your part so I don’t feel compelled to respond. How do you know what they like?
I just said they had publicly declared themselves as fans I don't have a clue what their favourite Stevie albums are and neither do you.

Maybe it is just an assumption. But then again I’ve never seen anyone citing RAL, TOSOTM, SA and TISL as classic Stevie work outside the fan zone. Her best work is widely seen as something that was done with Fleetwood Mac in the ‘70s, or her first two solo albums. You’d think that if these artists actually adored SN’s later achievements and found them equal of the earlier ones then they’d mention it specifically. But they haven’t and that’s why I’m going to stick to my assumption.

If they were speaking of Stevie’s musical influence, not the ideological one, then I truly can’t hear any of those four albums in their work. The Smashing Pumpkins were essentially an attempt to combine the structures of the ‘70s prog with the values of the ‘80s alternative music. There’s no sense of ’80s mainstream music in their albums, but Fleetwood Mac of the '70s could be an influence.

Redd Kross: "Rhiannon". Hole: "Gold Dust Woman". The Smashing Pumpkins: "Landslide". Doesn't that give a good idea of which era of Stevie Nicks they prefer?

So what? He does call Lindsey’s songs musical curiosities later on and admits he doesn’t like them much. Oh I forgot, it's the arrangements you like.

Hey, I love a good song when I hear one no matter how barebones it is. But “musical curiosities”?

That’s the attitude Lindsey has been suffering from. “Cool sound, no substance”. “Fragments as opposed to fully fleshed out songs”. Tusk reviews there. I’m not going to argue with the latter point, it can be accurate occasionally. But it isn’t a musical curiosity for me. It’s expression through arrangement, through the nuances in tone colours and rhythmic subtleties. It isn’t songwriting, isn’t vocal performance, it’s that sonic painter approach we’ve been talking about for a long time. It isn’t always obvious emotion, it can be shrouded, layered, twisted, chopped into pieces, but it’s there. His dedication is always in there. It can be two or more emotions crossed together to form an expressionist painting. Because of that attitude he’s still largely unscathed and hasn’t begun to entirely rehash his former glories like so many “old farts” do. It isn’t to say that he’s “beyond all that songwriting”. It isn’t to say he’s totally complex and that he’s so great that no normal music fans can appreciate him (if someone here thinks this way then I don’t believe even the man himself would share that view).

Equally, Stevie often gets called the “deep” one. Lindsey’s the intellectual, the soulless analyser. Stevie is the sincere woman who always writes from the heart. That’s a false view in my opinion and it is very common, believe me. Just because Stevie can be very personal, just because she has that voice, just because she discusses her music very openly in interviews doesn’t mean that she’s “deeper”. She’s just different than Lindsey. Lindsey isn’t any less deep, the emotions he’s trying to express aren’t always obvious for us but there is a lot being expressed when you put yourself to a different viewpoint. He isn’t esoteric and inaccessible because of all this, there are far more of those kinds of artists out there who can lose their sense of purpose amidst all the experimentation. IMO, Lindsey has never lost it.

So for all of those who resort to the age-old arguments: READ THE ABOVE TWO PARAGRAPHS YOU CLOTH-EARED NINCOMPOOPS!

I didn’t direct this to you at all Sharon. It was for those who I’ve seen making those arguments for the hundred billionth time.

Originally posted by face of glass
And there’s one more reason why she was supposedly sorted out as the indie heroine. It’s because of the life she lived, the stories of constant abuse throughout the years.

Originally posted by trackaghost
How do you know? Another assumption on your part.

Well yeah. It is, I guess. I’ve just accustomed to seeing all those myths and darker occasions attached to the artists in many articles in the alternative papers. But I can definitely see how Stevie would be cooler than anyone other in FM camp because of her past.

I think it was because they played it constantly on Radio 1, Gaius. It’s the reason why most songs become hits.

And the reason they played it on Radio 1 is….

(Don’t tell me they had ignored all the hits from BD, TWH and RAL when they were originally released.)

I love the way you dismiss my argument as “nostalgic” but your's are obviously not rose-tinted at all. It's almost as if you are saying that you have a better appreciation and evaluation of the music because your mind is not tainted by "nostalgia".

I wasn’t trying to say that, although I guess it could be once again read that way. I envy you, I envy ChiliD, I envy any fan who’s been into FM longer than I have. It’s a whole other world of experience that I have no idea of and I’m glad you people are posting here to share some of that with us Dancers. I don’t think that you’re completely blind followers. I’ve seen you, ChiliD and others criticize the band too so I believe the size of the so-called “braindead” fan segment is very small.

I grew up in a house filled with music from country and blues to punk and metal to dance and pop. You are assuming once again that I don't know what I’m talking about. Fine.

Yeah, I went wrong there again. When I was 14 I wasn’t a fan of anything in particular, I had just started to listen to music in earnest. I listened to the radio all the time and thought everything was great. I assumed you were just as “shallow” as I was at that age, but it obviously isn’t true. I knew about your background but I dismissed it yet again. I apologize for that.

Originally posted by face of glass
And OOTC is “very mainstream” while TOSOTM isn’t?

Originally posted by trackaghost
Another thing I didn’t say. But then I’m becoming used to this.

Originally posted by trackaghost on 01-09-2004 in the “When I See You Again appreciation thread”
The album that everyone holds up as Lindsey's masterpiece, Out Of The Cradle, suffers from too much production and polish for my taste. It's almost like he has smoothed away all the personality of those songs (I still like that record but it stops me from loving it!). I always thought that's why it wasn't a big hit, not because it was too "leftfield" or "not meant for the mainstream", as Lindsey himself might put it, because it's very mainstream.

Originally posted by trackaghost
I know you compared Stevie's TOSOTM to Tina Turner or someone, but I assure you when that record came out it sounded unique.

OK, maybe I read too much into things once again. But then again you seemed to suggest that TOSOTM was ahead of its time and that it was unique, which at least in my mind would make it less mainstream.

Perhaps it was ahead of the pack (although once again that would be because of Rupert Hine, not Stevie). But then again for me it isn’t a virtue to pioneer something that was completely imitated during the next decade. Now if it was something like 10CC’s “I’m Not In Love” which basically predicted the whole AOR genre but featured lyrics that are very unlikely in such context, then maybe I could see some Steely Dan-ish values in there. I wasn't there in 1989, you're right about that.

Yeah, I forgot Stevie is just a “voice” and that you always refer to Christine and Stevie as “the ladies” of the band.

This voice is one of the greatest instruments of our times. It’s not just a voice, it’s the thing that initiates the whole track and Lindsey wouldn’t have anything to build on if it didn’t exist.

It isn’t just the voice anyway. It’s the way she sings it. All those notes she emphasizes, all those nuances she puts in there. It’s something Lindsey doesn’t have himself. That’s far more than just singing.

You read this if you really want to know what I think on the subject:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...5&pagenumber=7

If you’re jumping on my particular choice of words then you’re just reading too much into it. I’ve never spoken of Chris and Stevie being inactive “cheerleaders” within FM. I think they had their say just as much as the guys did. It has nothing to do with producer skills.

Oh Stevie’s demos are rubbish I forgot! Just piano and a voice.

I’ve never said they are rubbish. I just don’t read into that aspect of her music as much as the biggest SN fans do. There is a lot of value in there, it’s just something that doesn’t always speak to me.

Yeah, the likes of Kristen Hersh and Cat Power never do that do they? Oh if only Lindsey arranged their records then they would be worthwhile!

If Stevie thought her demos were worthy of release then we’d already have loads of officially released albums full of them.

If she truly wanted her solo releases to be alternatives to FM albums then she’d release only barebones material. Do an album with a good, real band, don’t produce it beyond the basic work, record it quickly and focus solely on the performance aspect. Now that would be something.

Stevie is just a voice, I must get that in my head. She contributes nothing but that, because lyrics aren't important. And melody means nothing only "arrangements".

It’s not like I’ve been trying to run a Buckingham propaganda machine here. Yeah, I write long posts but I’d like to think I haven’t gotten into the area where I tell people what they should think. And if I get there, I most likely will be warned by many.
Of course, it seems like it happened here anyway. I should have seen it coming.

Oh and Lindsey is a good producer, like I didn’t know. How many other great artists need a good producer? It seems to me you are saying she is useless without him. Fine. I thought she had proved herself without him but of course you think those records aren't very good. A lot of people do like them though, just so you know.

I’ve never said she’s useless without LB. I think she has proven herself without him. I like all her solo albums. I know a lot of people like them. There’s other sides to the matter but they’ve been discussed to a ridiculous detail by yours truly already.

Originally posted by shackin’up
who did not see in my 365 posts that I had my share of Indie, too. (yes gaius that makes 5 of us!) And I know that there are a lot more on the ledge. But not so many who show off so often....

Gerald, give me names.

(Yes, I knew you liked the stuff but the ZZ Top reference in the LB covers thread last year threw me off for a while. But I like them too.)

*shakes hands with Gerald who has finally learned to use my real name after my 213 posts*

Finally, to Sharon. I know this should be a PM but I think it doesn’t cause any harm to put this here.

I’m sorry I’ve dragged this thread and others on for so long. I am a verbose person and I should learn not to impulsively react to everything.

I apologize for making you angry. I didn’t want to do it but I’m not blameless at all. I put in many stupid jokes and stuff that could be seen as haughty. I admit, I too was irritated by your post. It did bother me when you claimed that Stevie has the “alternative qualities” in her music and that you wouldn’t appreciate Lindsey as much as you do if you had discovered him later. Yeah, it influenced my post even though I tried to cover it up a little.

I admit that I’ve done some intellectual posturing in my past. It’s something I’ve tried to get rid of but I guess it still works its way into these posts somehow. Yes, I'm self-indulged, self-conscious and all that. Yes, I may pretend this is all just for the sake of a conversation, but it must seem like I'm just boosting my ego. Again, it's a completely wrong approach to write posts to any board. It's very possible that my posts haven't solely been about my preferences in this thread. It's obviously my inability to let go in the middle of an argument.

I’ve never meant to hurt anyone with any of this. I’ve never meant to convert anyone with anything I write. It’s because I love music and it’s because I feel there’s other sides to the matter. I take this too seriously, I know. It’s just such a huge part of my life.

I’ve always respected you as a person. It’s weird because a month ago I angered Nancy who is another person I respect a lot. I’ve never wanted to do that but it seems like I still haven’t learnt anything from what I’ve done.

If you want to leave because of this I understand you. It isn’t comfortable reading at all, just like I’m having difficulties with some of the Buckingham critique. Of course I wouldn’t want you to go. I’ve loved reading your posts and PMs; very often they’ve cheered me up during a bad day.

If this all bothers you so much then I should stop making these posts for a long time. Essentially they’re just a repetition of themselves.

I don’t want you to go but take care, no matter what you decide.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by shackin'up
But I still belt out Turn it on when I'm vacuumcleaning the room

Well, I for one am happy to learn that you are not shirking your domestic duties.

I just don't get it when you say the choice of him is to have the thing more guitaroriented means that you just let the drums sound like you and I could have played it in acid-pro on a rainy afternoon.

That's a good point, Gerald. But I was merely paraphrasing what Lindsey himself has said. He wanted to tone down the kit and the bass. He wanted to challenge himself by creating as many of the essential sounds with the guitar as possible. I also recall reading that he was very satisfied with his use of drum machines, saying that unlike most recordings that had used them, the drum machines in Cradle did not come across as "cartoonish." This was what he told Rolling Stone, as I recall.

To me, it generally worked. I tend to agree that acoustic drums were perhaps not necessary. But then again, if you added the acoustic drums to the songs, I might change my mind after hearing them.

To be sure, Lindsey himself realized he needed real drums for the Gift of Screws songs. Only when he got really experimental with Red Rover and She Smiles Sweetly, did he carry through with that "guitar as orchestra" concept. So a happy medium was reached?

[CarneVaca]

I haven’t tried to belittle Stevie at all. Some of her solo music tends to be inadequate for me and this isn’t supposed to be anything more than an exorcism of an inner demon of mine. I feel the woman’s pull and at the same time there can be things that can turn me off.

I've said it and I'll say it again. The main problem is editing, or lack thereof. Stevie doesn't believe in editing herself, and this is why we've been subjected to certain monstrous Stevie cuts that I needn't mention again. It's actually quite simple: No one who ever puts pen to paper is above editing. I believe this as a writer. And I believe this as and editor.

The only one besides me that I’ve seen taking Lindsey’s side (and not even close to my level) in the Buckingham vs. Nicks battle is CarneVaca.

Does this mean I am now an honorary "self-indulged but funny butthead of a Fin?"

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

That's a good point, Gerald. But I was merely paraphrasing what Lindsey himself has said. He wanted to tone down the kit and the bass. He wanted to challenge himself by creating as many of the essential sounds with the guitar as possible. I also recall reading that he was very satisfied with his use of drum machines, saying that unlike most recordings that had used them, the drum machines in Cradle did not come across as "cartoonish." This was what he told Rolling Stone, as I recall.

Well, I agree with the man that it is not cartoonish. But it didn't help in giving such great songs a rock'n'roll-feel, that I'd like to hear. And hey, I'm important, because I play his music all the time and have to listen to it. Im sure I heard that album more often than he did, after he he finished it!

To be sure, Lindsey himself realized he needed real drums for the Gift of Screws songs. Only when he got really experimental with Red Rover and She Smiles Sweetly, did he carry through with that "guitar as orchestra" concept. So a happy medium was reached?

What he did on RR and SSS and Try for the Sun and Say Goodbye is just simply brilliant. For me that is something completely different then using drummachines in (pop)rocksongs.
And he chose to use accousticdrums on the rest of the GOS-songs, so he came back on it, to my great relief. I put GOS way above OOTC for that reason....

But that one he didn't bring out!!!! as we all know....


gerald "finlovingcriminal" van koert