I'm sorry but I think Lindsey is a little overrated

[strandinthewind]

I agree Les - ancient history!!!

You know I was thinking about this as we were all posting - no wonder people are still somewhat caught up in all of FM's drama (esp La Nicks and LB) - we are still arguing almost 15 years after the fact and we were not even there and do not even know these people - but boy if we did . . . . LOL

P.S. - the costing of people's jobs statement was referring to the the jobs that would have been lost if FM had to cancel their tour because of LB's sudden departure. That could have been over 100 jobs (roadies, managers, tech crew, wardrobe people, truck drivers, etc.). Interestingly, LB's departure created two more jobs (Billy and Rick) or at least one more if you discount LB's loss of one of those jobs. So, maybe my point is moot when considered from this point of view.

[blinker12]

That still doesn't answer the question, does it? You're merely passing judgment. But... never mind.

Just curious _ is this some kind of veiled response to my posting of earlier today, in which I said you were passing judgment? I notice you never responded to it directly.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by blinker12
Just curious _ is this some kind of veiled response to my posting of earlier today, in which I said you were passing judgment? I notice you never responded to it directly.

Definitely not. I skimmed over your post and decided it needed no response. When I have something to say to you, I will. Directly. You may accuse me of a lot of things here, but "veiled responses" isn't one of them.

[Miranda]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree Les - ancient history!!!

You know I was thinking about this as we were all posting - no wonder people are still somewhat caught up in all of FM's drama (esp La Nicks and LB) - we are still arguing almost 15 years after the fact and we were not even there and do not even know these people - but boy if we did . . . . LOL

Sure we know them...those of us who've been around long enough. I just had to give my psychological profile of everyone in the "I confess" thread.

I am soooo bad!

[gldstwmn]

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE MAN LIVE? Believe me, he can friggin' play. I for one am mesmerized by his playing. It's so fun to watch. Can't wait to hear Come live. The guy NEVER took a guitar lesson in his life and has been playing since he was 8. That's talent! Some players are manufactured, LB is not. In fact, I have often considered Lindsey to be one of the most underrated guitarists of our time. I think it's due in part to the fact that he has had so very few live performances in the last 20 years. There in nothing unimpressive about this guy.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr

To dismiss Stevie Nicks as a marketing tool is just asanine.

That's right. Stevie was doing image and marketing before there ever was image and marketing. She was the whole package. Can you name any other woman who had a hugely succesful solo career and maintained her success in a group as well? She is no footnote, nor will she ever be. She was an innovator for the likes of many other women in the business.

[Johnny Stew]

You know what's funny? I hadn't even read a single post in this thread, when CarneVaca and I got into our little debate in another thread about what I consider to be double-standards.
And then I visit this one, and there they are again... in all their glory.

I think the thing that Stevie Fans get most upset about in regards to some Lindsey Fans (certainly not all), is that Stevie does seem to get hung up by her heels for things that Lindsey is forgiven for, and other things he's even lauded for.
But I guess that goes both ways at times.

I see a lot of wild statements in this thread... some I agree with, some I disagree with, and some that I can't even figure out the impetus behind.

One inaccuracy that I see a lot of in various thread at various times, is that Stevie's only contributions to 'Tango In The Night,' came during the very last few weeks of recording.
I have a radio interview she did with Jim Ladd, directly after the release of 'Rock A Little,' and she mentions that Fleetwood Mac was recording again, that she was just recently with them, and gave them some of her songs to work on while she'd be away on tour.
After the 'RAL' tour got under way, and her addictions came to a head, and she went off to rehab, we know that her involvement with the FM album then became very minimal.
But to state unequivocally that her only involvement was at the end of the album, is untrue.

I also think it's innacurate to state that Stevie gave the band her "leftovers."
Stevie has always maintained (and there is a lot of evidence to back her up), that Fleetwood Mac has first dibs on her songs, and anything else is then used for her solo albums (unless, of course, there is no Fleetwood Mac album on the horizon).
That her 'Tango' songs are considered less than stellar, is a matter of opinion, and I'm sure Stevie felt very strongly about those songs.
And, as it's been pointed out, obviously the band chose those songs for a reason. They certainly had tons of other songs they could have done, if they didn't like them.
But it's true that she didn't devote as much time to the Fleetwood Mac project as she should have.
It's also true that some dates were booked for the 1987 tour BEFORE Lindsey decided to quit at the eleventh hour.

Both clearly had a lot of turmoil in their lives at this point in time, and both did various things... with reasons only known to them... which leave the rest of scratching our heads.

As for who's the better person... well, that one is simply impossible to answer, and all comes down to which of the two you lean most towards.

Lindsey's former girlfriend, Cherri Caspari, appeared on the Phil Donohue Show to discuss his alleged violent treatment towards her, and Mick recounted that apparently violent altercation between Lindsey and Stevie, when L.B. announced he was quitting the band. Mick has also recounted... as has Christine... Lindsey kicking Stevie on stage, and tripping her backstage.
However, these episodes are quickly glossed over by the fans (some going so far as to say Stevie "probably deserved it").

Meanwhile, we know that Stevie has had at least one abortion (and three more are alleged), and during the "Klonopin Years," she was very difficult, demanding, and fired a lot of people (by her own admission).

Stevie *has* done a lot of good over the years though... including giving the royalties for "Beautiful Child" to UNICEF, donating a lot of money to the City of Hope and to Lukemia research, writing letters and sending CDs to the troops in Desert Storm and those in the current war in Iraq, and performing many benefit shows over the years for various charities, as well as conducting the annual Stevie Nicks And Friends benefits for the American Heart Institute (which Lindsey has also participated in).
It has also been stated by various sources (including the book, 'Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Stevie Nicks') that she has signed song royalties over to friends who have had money troubles, and have let various people share her home, when they've needed a place to live.

So, all in all, Stevie sounds like a pretty damn good person to me, and if asked, I would be inclined to say that she is the "better" person, but I admit that I'm not as familiar with any philanthropic deeds Lindsey may have done.

Both clearly have made mistakes, and are far from perfect... but whose "side" you take, again depends on which you tend to like more.

[gypsysara]

Well said Johnny!

Carne, no offense but I was just telling you how I was - straight up - and how Id react - as you asked, and it wasnt enough. So I give up! Sorry to offend you.

[Les]

It was Carol Ann Harris and it was on Geraldo.

I think the thing that Stevie Fans get most upset about in regards to some Lindsey Fans (certainly not all), is that Stevie does seem to get hung up by her heels for things that Lindsey is forgiven for, and other things he's even lauded for. But I guess that goes both ways at times.

Well, that's just it, isn't it? Stevie-leaning fans are more sensitive to the criticisms and slights leveled at her and are thus more aware of them. When you're more aware of them and "feel" them more deeply, the tendency then is to feel that those slights are more harsh and more numerous than any such slights directed at Lindsey (or anyone else).

You can be assured that this feeling works the same for Lindsey-leaning fans.

The "glossing over" is apparent on both sides. The "they deserved it" attitude is apparent on both sides. The empathy or sympathy or apathy toward the plights of one vs. the other is apparent on both sides.

My question is - why are there sides? Who is the better person? Who cares! While we may feel like we know these people, what we know of them through rumor and through interviews is only a fraction of who they are. I couldn't begin to judge, nor do I want to.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
One inaccuracy that I see a lot of in various thread at various times, is that Stevie's only contributions to 'Tango In The Night,' came during the very last few weeks of recording.
I have a radio interview she did with Jim Ladd, directly after the release of 'Rock A Little,' and she mentions that Fleetwood Mac was recording again, that she was just recently with them, and gave them some of her songs to work on while she'd be away on tour.
After the 'RAL' tour got under way, and her addictions came to a head, and she went off to rehab, we know that her involvement with the FM album then became very minimal.
But to state unequivocally that her only involvement was at the end of the album, is untrue.

I have that interview on disc, too. However, you pretty much gave a good example of how she only worked with FM a little towards the end: giving someone your songs to work on the music for while you are out on tour does not count as time being spent working on the album. You're passing your work off to someone else. Then, after all the rehab and the tour, you go into the studio to sing the songs. Seven Wonders was sung once. Who knows how many times the others were sung. Then, she barely put any backing vocals on. LB has said that she "phoned-in" many of her parts, too. So, I don't think it's a misconception at all: she barely participated.

And... I like Stevie better than Lindsey but he is sooooooooooooo UNDERrated!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Les
It was Carol Ann Harris and it was on Geraldo.

Oops! Where's that blushing smiley when I need it?
Thanks for correcting the error, Les. Mistakes like that are how "songs are written, stories are told, rumours are started." *hehehe*

Originally posted by Les
Well, that's just it, isn't it? Stevie-leaning fans are more sensitive to the criticisms and slights leveled at her and are thus more aware of them.

You can be assured that this works the same in the reverse direction.

The "glossing over" is apparent on both sides.

My question is - why are there sides? Who is the better person? Who cares! While we may feel like we know these people, what we know of them through rumor and through interviews is only a fraction of who they are. I couldn't begin to judge, nor do I want to.

You're very, VERY right, Les... and despite my perceived role as a "Stevie defender," I think I've often pointed out that I don't think she's a saint, nor would I want her to be.
The same goes for Lindsey.
I'm fascinated by human nature and all of our foibles, but if I honestly thought Lindsey was a creep without any redeeming qualities, I probably wouldn't give his music the time of day.

While it may not seem that way, I actually defend and praise Lindsey a lot outside of The Ledge, to those who quickly write off his talents or just him in general.

I just tend to do that more for Stevie here on The Ledge, because her talents and importance to Fleetwood Mac seem to be dismissed so often here in favor of Lindsey.
Just as it irks many people to no end that Stevie is given so much credit by the fans and the critics for the success of Fleetwood Mac, it annoys many people when Lindsey is portrayed as the only one of the two with any talent (or has any talent left).

His every move is defended by the same people who ridicule Stevie's fans for that very behaviour... and no, Carne, I swear I'm not pointing a finger at you, or anyone in particular.

But this is where the "who's over-rated? who's under-rated? are either of them really under-rated OR over-rated?" questions come up, and where those pesky double-standards (on BOTH sides) seem to creep in.

Both are very integral to the success of Fleetwood Mac, in their own ways... and I venture to guess that if neither had ever been in the same band together, no one on Earth would ever think to compare the two.

For the record, I too feel that Lindsey is under-rated for the most part... but I think Stevie is too, in many aspects.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Seven Wonders was sung once. Who knows how many times the others were sung. Then, she barely put any backing vocals on. LB has said that she "phoned-in" many of her parts, too. So, I don't think it's a misconception at all: she barely participated.

I have a couple outtakes of "Seven Wonders" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara" which contain alternate vocal takes from Stevie.
These are not demos, by the way.

I have a copy of "When I See You Again" which has some alternate vocals as well.

But I know the point you're trying to make, and I agree that Stevie barely participating on 'Tango' is not a misconception at all... I just wanted to clear up the idea that she had nothing to do with it until practically the end.

I do also know that she has said that she and FM sent tapes back and forth at some point during the 'RAL' tour, which she would add vocals to... which could be the basis of the "phoned it in" comment.
While it's not an ideal way to participate on an album or song, it's not the first time it's happened.
I know many duets over the years were actually recorded with the singers not even having met.

Again, I'm not trying to defend Stevie here... but I do think the fact that she tried at all, says alot about her devotion to Fleetwood Mac.
But then the fact that Lindsey side-lined his solo project also says a lot about his devotion to Fleetwood Mac.

Maybe she felt guilty in 1987 that she didn't give as much time to Fleetwood Mac as she perhaps should have for 'Tango,' and was hoping the tour would help correct that. I can't even begin to imagine the thought-processes and insecurities of someone who just quit cocaine after a decade of addiction.
So when Lindsey opted to not tour, Stevie was devestated. In the days and hours before Rick and Billy were hired, she may have even feared that Fleetwood Mac was dead, and may have wondered how much of that was her fault.

Which is where these particular debates can go around and around for the rest of eternity.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I have a couple outtakes of "Seven Wonders" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara" which contain alternate vocal takes from Stevie.
These are not demos, by the way.

The WTTR...S that is in circulation is a demo; there's no way that it could be an outtake. Unless you have one that is different than the one in circulation. I have the outtake to Seven Wonders and it's the same vocal until the end, where the album version ends, this one goes on for a while longer.

What I meant was that this song was cut in one night; as quoted by Stevie. She sang it, fudged up the lyrics, tried again that same night, and kept the fudged up version because it was the best vocal.

I do agree with you, though, the Lindsey vs. Stevie thing is incredibly asinine.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by dissention

I do agree with you, though, the Lindsey vs. Stevie thing is incredibly asinine.

Agreed. It's like, apart from each other, they're superb and together, they're phenomenal....either way, you can't loose. Why argue and make it into a Lindsey vs Stevie thing? Regardless of who you like better, we all obviously like one or the other or both. If not, I guess we wouldn't have all just purchased Say You Will, making it release at #3 on the Billboard charts, nor would we all be speaking here on the Fleetwood Mac portion of The Ledge. Let's just enjoy all this while we have it because who knows how long it will all last

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I have a radio interview she did with Jim Ladd, directly after the release of 'Rock A Little,' and she mentions that Fleetwood Mac was recording again, that she was just recently with them, and gave them some of her songs to work on while she'd be away on tour.

Is this the Jim Ladd Innerview from 1986 or the on-air phone call he made to Stevie in Scottsdale just a few days before "Rock a Little" was released in 1985?