Amnesty: Do You Support It Or Deprecate It?

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Hey Irishgrl:

This was an interesting read. It's a busy week, but I will respond. In the meantime, I have a clarifying question:

I thought your argument was that illegal immigrants become eligible for benefits if they have a baby in the United States. Did I understand that incorrectly? Because this article (and what I previously thought) is that the child becomes eligible, but not the parents.

I just want to know the specifics before I respond. Thanks.

Im going to get you factual info, so I'll be back.

in cases where parents are ineligible for one reason or another, the family still receives cash assistance for the children, (that is the "anchor baby" phenomenon) and in any case, the parents are eligible to medi-CAL benefits. The reality is, many of these (primarily Hispanic) families have several kids, and that increases the cash grant amount. Oftentimes, it is enough to pay the rent even without the parents being cash aided. I think you did misunderstand me to the extent that I didnt mean the illegals received cash aid. They do, however, receive other benefits in the form of WIC and student lunches which are also costly...

ok, I have to go to Court right now, but you may find this article helpful:
Patchwork Policies: State Assistance for Immigrants under Welfare Reform

(note: I havent scanned it, but it looked pertinent.)

[irishgrl]

From the article I posted:

Overview

For immigrants, the passage of federal welfare reform meant much more than ending the entitlement to cash assistance. The law restricted noncitizen eligibility for a wide range of public programs, including Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), food stamps, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and Medicaid, and it gave states broad new authority to set social welfare policy for immigrants.

Since the law's enactment, the President and Congress have restored many, but not all, of the benefits from which immigrants were originally barred. Many children, elderly, and disabled immigrants have had their eligibility for food stamps and SSI restored. But most working-age adults remain ineligible for food stamps and most immigrants entering the United States after the law's passage are ineligible for the major federal assistance programs for at least five years.

Although the Congress has gone a long way toward undoing the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act's (PRWORA) immigrant restrictions, it has left another of the law's legacies intact: the devolution of authority from the federal government to the states to determine immigrants' eligibility for public benefits.

Unqualified Immigrants

Another of PRWORA's legacies is the new distinction drawn between "qualified" and "unqualified" immigrants. Undocumented or illegal immigrants have long been ineligible for most public benefits, but this new classification broadens both the groups of immigrants ineligible for assistance and the set of public programs from which they are barred. The law barred undocumented immigrants as well as certain lawfully present immigrants from most federal, state and local public benefits. Consequently, while PRWORA broadened states' authority to set policy for qualified immigrants, it narrowed states' authority to make policy for unqualified immigrants.

California is the only state to take an aggressive approach to implementing the new restrictions on unqualified immigrants. Under the leadership of former Governor Pete Wilson, at least 20 California agencies have issued regulations to bar unqualified immigrants from public services, ranging from the Lead Hazard Control Program to the issuance of commercial driver's licenses. Like his earlier efforts under Proposition 187, which sought to bar undocumented immigrants from public education and other services, most of the state's efforts have been stymied by court challenges. A handful of other states that provided state and local cash or health assistance to immigrants regardless of legal status have since barred the undocumented, but none has attempted to impose restrictions as wide-ranging as California's.

California is different

Despite its anti-immigrant rhetoric, California provides more assistance to immigrants than almost every other state. At the same time, California stands out as the only state to aggressively pursue cutting unqualified immigrants off state and local benefits. This divided approach to immigrant policy reflects the unique politics of immigration in California, where increasing numbers of immigrants are naturalizing in order to vote and immigrant advocacy organizations are growing in strength, yet ballot initiatives such as those limiting affirmative action and bilingual education are approved by the public.

Ryan, it should be noted that the above comments are generalized toward ALL programs. I can tell you that the "anchor babies" practice is very much an issue (especially with TANF or cash aid), primarily because California DOES try to assist immigrants. Illegal immigrants have more than one option, if they dont qualify for TANF, or General Assistance, they can always apply for CAPI, which pays quite a bit more on a monthly basis...

[DrummerDeanna]

Puleeeze! Immigration is SO yesterday...we're back to fighting the REAL enemy again..the gays


....I'm totally kidding....

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Puleeeze! Immigration is SO yesterday...we're back to fighting the REAL enemy again..the gays


....I'm totally kidding....

the gays were never MY enemy (I know you're kidding!)
Deanna, I know this is a sensitive topic for you but believe me, my objection to the issue is not racist but rather economic, and ideological, as Ive said. Please try not to take my posts personal, because as a CA resident, Im more aware than most people of the valuable contribution of our Hispanic/Mexican citizens...I hope you know that...

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Puleeeze! Immigration is SO yesterday...we're back to fighting the REAL enemy again..the gays


....I'm totally kidding....

who'll be the enemy next week?

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

the gays were never MY enemy (I know you're kidding!)
Deanna, I know this is a sensitive topic for you but believe me, my objection to the issue is not racist but rather economic, and ideological, as Ive said. Please try not to take my posts personal, because as a CA resident, Im more aware than most people of the valuable contribution of our Hispanic/Mexican citizens...I hope you know that...

Oh I know - but as a Mexican American it's sometimes hard to separate the issue from the racial. Although - my family and I are all against illegal immigration. No, in fact I enjoy reading all of the articles and things you have been posting on the topic.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Oh I know - but as a Mexican American it's sometimes hard to separate the issue from the racial. Although - my family and I are all against illegal immigration. No, in fact I enjoy reading all of the articles and things you have been posting on the topic.

Thanks sweetie! you've always been fair minded and I know this is a hard issue but remember the folks that sneak across, or use fake ID, make things harder for those of you that are following the rules! Thats what I'M against: the blatant disregard of the law just to get into this country and take advantage of our social service programs and our employment opportunities (at the expense of legal immigrants or legal citizens, mind you).......so anyway, rest easy. Im not an isolationist.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

From the article I posted:


Ryan, it should be noted that the above comments are generalized toward ALL programs. I can tell you that the "anchor babies" practice is very much an issue (especially with TANF or cash aid), primarily because California DOES try to assist immigrants. Illegal immigrants have more than one option, if they dont qualify for TANF, or General Assistance, they can always apply for CAPI, which pays quite a bit more on a monthly basis...

Thanks for the additional information. I need to read it all over and it will take some time for me to respond to various items. Maybe I should just PM you when I do so that I don't keep bumping up the thread?

But I'm still trying to understand: are illegal immigrants eligible or not eligible for cash assistance? If yes, is it only if they have an anchor baby? And is it only money for the anchor baby or do they qualify for cash as parents as well?

It's confusing to me, because I thought the long article you posted said that they are not eligible for cash assistance, but their kids are eligible for things like Medicaid and school lunch programs. But if I'm reading correctly, your post above makes it seem like they can qualify for TANF in some cases (TANF is the old welfare, correct?) and CAPI (which I'm assuming is a California cash assistance program?).

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Thanks for the additional information. I need to read it all over and it will take some time for me to respond to various items. Maybe I should just PM you when I do so that I don't keep bumping up the thread?

But I'm still trying to understand: are illegal immigrants eligible or not eligible for cash assistance? If yes, is it only if they have an anchor baby? And is it only money for the anchor baby or do they qualify for cash as parents as well?

It's confusing to me, because I thought the long article you posted said that they are not eligible for cash assistance, but their kids are eligible for things like Medicaid and school lunch programs. But if I'm reading correctly, your post above makes it seem like they can qualify for TANF in some cases (TANF is the old welfare, correct?) and CAPI (which I'm assuming is a California cash assistance program?).

Ryan, Illegal Immigrants are NOT eligible for benefits for THEMSELVES but if they have babies born here, they are brought in under various other programs, most notably Medi-Cal, WIC and School Lunch programs. All of which are very expensive to operate given the extra numbers, yes? Also, the Children that are BORN here are eligible to assistance . of ALL kinds(CASH AID (aka TANF/Calworks etc). That is why we need to stop the flow of illegals, because their KIDS are going to cost us all a mint! Btw, TANF is the NEW welfare. AFDC is the OLD welfare.
CAPI is a cash assistance program for people who otherwise dont qualify for General Assistance.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Thanks sweetie! you've always been fair minded and I know this is a hard issue but remember the folks that sneak across, or use fake ID, make things harder for those of you that are following the rules! Thats what I'M against: the blatant disregard of the law just to get into this country and take advantage of our social service programs and our employment opportunities (at the expense of legal immigrants or legal citizens, mind you).......so anyway, rest easy. Im not an isolationist.

LOL...well I play by the rules by virtue of the fact that I, my parents and my parents parents were lucky enough to be born here Prior to that I think that we may have been down south - but the border crossed us kind of thing - I'm doing some research into that

Either way - breaking the law is breaking the law - and that, to me, is the bottom line in this issue - it's illegal and therefore the appropriate action should be taken. What that is...well I don't know...but I do agree that something needs to be done.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

breaking the law is breaking the law - and that, to me, is the bottom line in this issue - it's illegal and therefore the appropriate action should be taken.

exactly. black is black. (I want my baby back)

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Ryan, Illegal Immigrants are NOT eligible for benefits for THEMSELVES but if they have babies born here, they are brought in under various other programs, most notably Medi-Cal, WIC and School Lunch programs.

So, it's the children who get Medi-Cal, not the parents? I keep trying to clarify this because it's important in my overall analysis of the situation. Health care for kids is way cheaper than for adults. So while it's one thing to say that all these anchor babies are getting Medi-Cal, it's another to say exactly how much that is costing us. I realize a lot of people, including you, think one dime is too much. I get that argument, but my take on the situation depends how much we are really spending overall.

I just saw a stat that says we spent $2.5 billion on Medicaid for illegal immigrants. Which, yes, is a lot of money that could be spent on other services, and at the same time is a drop in the bucket of the overall federal budget. Bush just cut Medicaid spending by double that in the Deficit Reduction Act.

That is why we need to stop the flow of illegals, because their KIDS are going to cost us all a mint!

I'm still not convinced that it will cost us a mint, but I'm still researching and analyzing. Data I've found shows the difference between costs related to providing benefits to illegal immigrants minus taxes paid by them to be $10 billion. I think that's about what we're paying per month for the Iraq War.

Not trying to compare funding illegal immigration with funding war, as I know many are against both, but I'm just trying to determine what I consider to be a mint, especially when I weigh in the humanitarian factors.

Anyway, so you know, I have learned quite a bit and am considering factors that I hadn't thought about earlier, like the economic impact of having a massive influx of legalized people who are lesser educated. I just haven't had time to think it all through comprehensively.

I don't see it as black is black. I think it's gray. Laws can be amended if they aren't workable or appropriate. And forgiveness is part of a humanitarian response to many issues. The argument that they broke the law therefore they have to go is one that I just don't agree with.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

So, it's the children who get Medi-Cal, not the parents? I keep trying to clarify this because it's important in my overall analysis of the situation. Health care for kids is way cheaper than for adults. So while it's one thing to say that all these anchor babies are getting Medi-Cal, it's another to say exactly how much that is costing us. I realize a lot of people, including you, think one dime is too much. I get that argument, but my take on the situation depends how much we are really spending overall.

I just saw a stat that says we spent $2.5 billion on Medicaid for illegal immigrants. Which, yes, is a lot of money that could be spent on other services, and at the same time is a drop in the bucket of the overall federal budget. Bush just cut Medicaid spending by double that in the Deficit Reduction Act.



I'm still not convinced that it will cost us a mint, but I'm still researching and analyzing. Data I've found shows the difference between costs related to providing benefits to illegal immigrants minus taxes paid by them to be $10 billion. I think that's about what we're paying per month for the Iraq War.

Not trying to compare funding illegal immigration with funding war, as I know many are against both, but I'm just trying to determine what I consider to be a mint, especially when I weigh in the humanitarian factors.

Anyway, so you know, I have learned quite a bit and am considering factors that I hadn't thought about earlier, like the economic impact of having a massive influx of legalized people who are lesser educated. I just haven't had time to think it all through comprehensively.

I don't see it as black is black. I think it's gray. Laws can be amended if they aren't workable or appropriate. And forgiveness is part of a humanitarian response to many issues. The argument that they broke the law therefore they have to go is one that I just don't agree with.

well.........on the one hand, Im glad you're open minded enough to see this all has a price tag. on the other hand, apparently you dont realize we are talking about ILLEGAL aliens here, not naturalized citizens.........and Yes, it does cost this country $$$$$ whether its paid at the state.fed/local level...

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

on the other hand, apparently you dont realize we are talking aboit ILLEGAL aliens here, not naturalized citizens

Why do you think that? I think I've been very clear that this discussion is about illegal immigrants. I yield that it costs the country money, I yield that it is money paying for people here who came to the country illegally, and my argument thus far is that I am not sure the cost is high enough to warrant my own outrage regardless of their status here.

Besides the whole thread is about do we make these 14 million people legal or send them home. I think it is possible to support amnesty for these folks, along with reform that makes it harder for people to keep coming illegally in such large numbers.

Gotta go....

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Why do you think that? I think I've been very clear that this discussion is about illegal immigrants. I yield that it costs the country money, I yield that it is money paying for people here who came to the country illegally, and my argument thus far is that I am not sure the cost is high enough to warrant my own outrage regardless of their status here.

Besides the whole thread is about do we make these 14 million people legal or send them home. I think it is possible to support amnesty for these folks, along with reform that makes it harder for people to keep coming illegally in such large numbers.

Gotta go....

Ok, just to clarify, illegal immigrants who come here and have their children, receive (on behalf of the kids), cash aid, foodstamps and medical. they themselves do not receive cash or foodstamps but they DO get medi-CAL. they can also get WIC and school lunches.

as for the numbers. I posted enough articles that prove that supporting illegal immagrants is an outrage. go back to page 1 and later pages... In my opinion we do NOT foot the bill for people who arent supposed to be here in the first place.

sorry......IMO, they need to go home and start OVER.