New Bushism

[strandinthewind]

I was just listening to an excerpt from the Pres's speech in which he defended the treatment of prisoners at Guantanomo, saying we have to realize that these are people who "disassemble' -- then he paused and I wondered what could possbly follow--bombs, societies, security measures? --then he said "that means they don't tell the truth."

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I was just listening to an excerpt from the Pres's speech in which he defended the treatment of prisoners at Guantanomo, saying we have to realize that these are people who "disassemble' -- then he paused and I wondered what could possbly follow--bombs, societies, security measures? --then he said "that means they don't tell the truth."

Did you hear that Cheney is "offended" over that report?

They run a gulag, nothing more.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Did you hear that Cheney is "offended" over that report?

They run a gulag, nothing more.

I would not call it that because it is far more humane - do I have to haul out gulag stories like I did when you compared W to Hitler - ya know you are prone to embellishing and exaggerating

But, back to the point, this is classic Rove/Cheney deny deny deny because most of America will believe it because they hate all Arabs. Sad - very true.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I would not call it that because it is far more humane - do I have to haul out gulag stories like I did when you compared W to Hitler - ya know you are prone to embellishing and exaggerating

And you're prone to understating. We're evenly matched, I suppose.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

And you're prone to understating. We're evenly matched, I suppose.

I usually haul out facts to demonstrate my points

[amber]

You both are prone to taking something literally that was meant to be comparative, but not literal - meant to spice up the sentence with a little fun, not be a literal fact.
You've both done it billions of times...

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I would not call it that because it is far more humane - do I have to haul out gulag stories like I did when you compared W to Hitler - ya know you are prone to embellishing and exaggerating

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

Go to amazon.com and check out Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

Well, here is a def of a Russian gulag from http://www.answers.com/topic/gulag :

Gulag, system of forced-labor prison camps in the USSR, from the Russian acronym [GULag] for the Main Directorate of Corrective Labor Camps, a department of the Soviet secret police (originally the Cheka; subsequently the GPU, OGPU, NKVD, MVD, and finally the KGB). The Gulag was first established under Vladimir Lenin during the early Bolshevik years (c.1920). The vast penal network, which ultimately included 476 camp complexes, functioned throughout Russia, many in the wastes of Siberia and the Soviet Far East. The system reached its peak after 1928 under Joseph Stalin, who used it to maintain the Soviet state by keeping its populace in a state of terror. Gulag deaths of both political prisoners and common criminals from overwork, starvation, and other forms of maltreatment are estimated to have been in the millions during Stalin's years in power.

Perhaps the best known of the Gulag camp complexes was Kolyma, an area in the Far East about six times the size of France that contained more than 100 camps. About three million are thought to have died there from its establishment in 1931 to 1953, the year of Stalin's death. The Gulag scheme was adapted into the infamous concentration camp system used during World War II, especially as Nazi death factories. The Soviet system was publicized in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, particularly in his book The Gulag Archipelago (1973, tr. 1974). Millions were released from the Gulag under Nikita Khrushchev, and the system was finally abolished by Mikhail Gorbachev.

Bibliography

See A. Shifrin, The First Guidebook to Prisons and Concentration Camps of the Soviet Union (tr. 1980), A. Applebaum, Gulag: A History (2003).
___________________________________________________________

The chief difference is in this sentence

Gulag deaths of both political prisoners and common criminals from overwork, starvation, and other forms of maltreatment are estimated to have been in the millions during Stalin's years in power.

Last I checked, that was not happening in any way at Gitmo, which we have one of compared to the system of hundreds in Russia. Thus, Gitmo is FAR from a Russian Gulag.

Here are some more articles:

http://www.townhall.com/bookclub/applebaum.html

http://www.orwelltoday.com/gulagbook.shtml

http://www.paulmitchinson.com/gulag.html

To be clear - I think what is happening at Gitmo is horrible. I think the US should be the "bigger party" and grant all of these people the rights the Geneva Convention grants enemy soldiers captured in battle, though many if not most of those captured do not qualify for that status as it is defined in the Geneva Convention because they were not fighting in a uniform, under the color of a state, etc., as required by the express language of the Geneva Convention. So, please do not mistake my saying that what goes on at Gitmo is not as severe as what happened in a Russian Gulag as saying I approve of Gitmo in any way.

I hope that helped.

In the end, I think it does people no good to make such patently false comparisons because to do so belies the credibility of any serious argument and shows the side making the argument is interested only in tading insults instead of sticking to the facts, which are really all that interest me in such debates.

[GateandGarden]

Yes, I see your point but I think that Lux was implying that there are worse atrocities happening (led by the U.S.) that we do not yet know about and won't know until it's too late.

But I see your point that assumptions are worth far less than facts, and I'm guessing that was an assumption on her part.

I don't know. I hate putting words in her mouth. I kind of wanted you two to get it on. ( ) I was going to sit back and watch.

EDIT: This was directed at Jason. I realized it may not have been clear.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end, I think it does people no good to make such patently false comparisons because to do so belies the credibility of any serious argument and shows the side making the argument is interested only in tading insults instead of sticking to the facts, which are really all that interest me in such debates.

Oh, it does not always do that. Connotative comparisons are what bring the English language alive!!! I wouldn't recommend doing it in more serious academic writings, or whatever, but I think it often helps underscore the connotations of your point.
P.S.
Nannynannybooboo!!!:sticks out tongue:

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, here is a def of a Russian gulag from http://www.answers.com/topic/gulag :

Gulag, system of forced-labor prison camps in the USSR, from the Russian acronym [GULag] for the Main Directorate of Corrective Labor Camps, a department of the Soviet secret police (originally the Cheka; subsequently the GPU, OGPU, NKVD, MVD, and finally the KGB). The Gulag was first established under Vladimir Lenin during the early Bolshevik years (c.1920). The vast penal network, which ultimately included 476 camp complexes, functioned throughout Russia, many in the wastes of Siberia and the Soviet Far East. The system reached its peak after 1928 under Joseph Stalin, who used it to maintain the Soviet state by keeping its populace in a state of terror. Gulag deaths of both political prisoners and common criminals from overwork, starvation, and other forms of maltreatment are estimated to have been in the millions during Stalin's years in power.

Perhaps the best known of the Gulag camp complexes was Kolyma, an area in the Far East about six times the size of France that contained more than 100 camps. About three million are thought to have died there from its establishment in 1931 to 1953, the year of Stalin's death. The Gulag scheme was adapted into the infamous concentration camp system used during World War II, especially as Nazi death factories. The Soviet system was publicized in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, particularly in his book The Gulag Archipelago (1973, tr. 1974). Millions were released from the Gulag under Nikita Khrushchev, and the system was finally abolished by Mikhail Gorbachev.

Bibliography

See A. Shifrin, The First Guidebook to Prisons and Concentration Camps of the Soviet Union (tr. 1980), A. Applebaum, Gulag: A History (2003).

Getting close to what could happen in the US under the guise of the "Patriot Act".