Juvenile death penalty unconstitutional - Page 5

GateandGarden · #61 03-02-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

Well, you'd be right. I may find her political opinions scummy, but I don't find her to be. She's respectful and doesn't put on any airs. Regardless of her beliefs and opinions, I have to respect her for that.

It's the fundies and right-wingers who call themselves "the heart of America" that I despise. It's the whack jobs that want to pump God into every possible thing that I despise. It's the people who vote Republican without knowing the issues that I despise. It's the politicians who attack liberals as being socialist pieces of **** while their own states have disgusting poverty levels that I despise. Nancy doesn't fall into any of those categories, no matter how vehemently I disagree with her.

Allright. I'm wondering how you feel about my other post, the longer one--#59.

dissention · #62 03-02-2005, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Allright. I'm wondering how you feel about my other post, the longer one--#59.

I'm still thinking about it.

I hate to say that it's ever okay to disrespect someone, but that simply isn't realistic and is only possible if you're not human. No one can go through life without showing others disrespect at some point, that's just reality.

GateandGarden · #63 03-02-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

I'm still thinking about it.

I hate to say that it's ever okay to disrespect someone, but that simply isn't realistic and is only possible if you're not human. No one can go through life without showing others disrespect at some point, that's just reality.

Okay. So you understand my moral dilemma here. If you think of more to say on it, I'll be checking this thread. And that goes for anyone else who has an opinion about my ideas to confirm or criticize them or whatever.

Post #59...going once...

dissention · #64 03-02-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Okay. So you understand my moral dilemma here. If you think of more to say on it, I'll be checking this thread. And that goes for anyone else who has an opinion about my ideas to confirm or criticize them or whatever.

Post #59...going once...

On one hand, I'd love to say that I'd be the bigger person if someone showed me such utter disrespect, but c'mon, this is me.

I have no desire to show anyone respect who disrespects me, so I understand exactly where you're coming from.

strandinthewind · #65 03-02-2005, 01:57 PM

To change the subject and add even more fire to this, I though Scalia had a point when in his dessent he said that the Court's reasoning that the DP should not apply to minors because they do not have the same mental and emotional capacity as an adult was specious because that same part of the Court clearly feels a minor can make the decision of whether to have an abortion without parental consent.

Here is an excerpt (emphasis supplied):

"[M]ethodological and other errors can affect the reliability and validity of estimates about the opinions and attitudes of a population derived from various sampling techniques. Everything from variations in the survey methodology, such as the choice of the target population, the sampling design used, the questions asked, and the statistical analyses used to interpret the data can skew the results." Atkins, supra, at 326-327 (dissenting opinion) (citing R. Groves, Survey Errors and Survey Costs (1989); 1 C. Turner & E. Martin, Surveying Subjective Phenomena (1984)).
In other words, all the Court has done today, to borrow from another context, is to look over the heads of the crowd and pick out its friends. Cf. Conroy v. Aniskoff, 507 U.S. 511, 519, 113 S.Ct. 1562, 123 L.Ed.2d 229 (1993) (SCALIA, J., concurring in judgment).

We need not look far to find studies contradicting the Court's conclusions. As petitioner points out, the American Psychological Association (APA), which claims in this case that scientific evidence shows persons under 18 lack the ability to take moral responsibility for their decisions, has previously taken precisely the opposite position before this very Court. In its brief in Hodgson v. Minnesota, 497 U.S. 417, 110 S.Ct. 2926, 111 L.Ed.2d 344 (1990), the APA found a "rich body of research" showing that juveniles are mature enough to decide whether to obtain an abortion without parental involvement. Brief for APA as Amicus Curiae, O.T.1989, No. 88-805 etc., p. 18. The APA brief, citing psychology treatises and studies too numerous to list here, asserted: "[B]y middle adolescence (age 14-15) young people develop abilities similar to adults in reasoning about moral dilemmas, understanding social rules and laws, [and] reasoning about interpersonal relationships and interpersonal problems." Id., at 19-20 (citations omitted). Given the nuances of scientific methodology and conflicting views, courts--which can only consider the limited evidence on the record before them--are ill equipped to determine which view of science is the right one. Legislatures "are better qualified to weigh and 'evaluate the results of statistical studies in terms of their own local conditions and with a flexibility of approach that is not available to the courts.' " McCleskey v. Kemp, 481 U.S. 279, 319, 107 S.Ct. 1756, 95 L.Ed.2d 262 (1987) (quoting Gregg, supra, at 186).

Even putting aside questions of methodology, the studies cited by the Court offer scant support for a categorical prohibition of the death penalty for murderers under 18. At most, these studies conclude that, on average, or in most cases, persons under 18 are unable to take moral responsibility for their actions. Not one of the cited studies opines that all individuals under 18 are unable to appreciate the nature of their crimes.
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Personally, I think that if we are to have the DP (which is a sep. argument) - then it should be a case by case determination as to whether the minor knew enough to know what his actions were. In the case sub judice, they clearly did and, if we are going to have it, I cannot think of a more appropriate candidate for the DP. They plotted it and then bragged about it. How can that be anything but knowing exactly what they were doing

strandinthewind · #66 03-02-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

On one hand, I'd love to say that I'd be the bigger person if someone showed me such utter disrespect, but c'mon, this is me.

I have no desire to show anyone respect who disrespects me, so I understand exactly where you're coming from.

black & white

better example though

But, I agree with you . I know so many people who accept untruth as fact, esp. regarding the current administration. Then, when they are called on it in a polite way, they resort to name calling. I guess I should just walk away then, but that is hard to do because it is a street fight then.

GateandGarden · #67 03-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

On one hand, I'd love to say that I'd be the bigger person if someone showed me such utter disrespect, but c'mon, this is me.

I have no desire to show anyone respect who disrespects me, so I understand exactly where you're coming from.

Do you think that Brown Eyes has respected me as a gay person on this board?

strandinthewind · #68 03-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Plus, I think people see people like Diss and myself get into it and call each other horrible names and think that is the norm. I can assure you that 99.9% of the time we are really just ragging each other.

GateandGarden · #69 03-02-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Plus, I think people see people like Diss and myself get into it and call each other horrible names and think that is the norm. I can assure you that 99.9% of the time we are really just ragging each other.

Oh, of course. I know y'all are just playing. Some of us aren't, though. I've said some unkind things that I actually did mean, despite the fact that they were really not nice at all. Lots of needless stress. I'd hate to go back and look at all the posts I addressed to Brown Eyes when he initally joined the board.

strandinthewind · #70 03-02-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Oh, of course. I know y'all are just playing. Some of us aren't, though. I've said some unkind things that I actually did mean, despite the fact that they were really not nice at all. Lots of needless stress. I'd hate to go back and look at all the posts I addressed to Brown Eyes when he initally joined the board.

I say the same about me. I really do try and keep it under wraps and be polite instead of rude - thus taking IMO the higher road. But, it is hard when somwone openly disparages you in an insulting manner. The great Nancy once said in refernence to a bruhaha on her board something like getting the last word in a snarky manner is not winning.

GateandGarden · #71 03-02-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I say the same about me. I really do try and keep it under wraps and be polite instead of rude - thus taking IMO the higher road. But, it is hard when somwone openly disparages you in an insulting manner. The great Nancy once said in refernence to a bruhaha on her board something like getting the last word in a snarky manner is not winning.

Hm. I do think that's what she did when we had our spat on her board that caused me to leave it permanently.

And, as I've suggested, perhaps you can, in a sense, still take the higher road by expressing your disrespect for someone in a way that is matter-of-fact and not spiteful. I don't know. The question is...is it okay to disrespect someone as a person if your feelings are presented in a polite manner.

dissention · #72 03-02-2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Do you think that Brown Eyes has respected me as a gay person on this board?

I don't think anyone who wants gay marriage banned is respectful towards gay men and women, so...

GateandGarden · #73 03-02-2005, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't think anyone who wants gay marriage banned is respectful towards gay men and women, so...

Okay, I'm inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly, but this goes back to something touched on earlier. I do believe that Nancy is opposed to gay marriage, so...

(And this isn't all about Nancy, since there have been others, on here and in my "real" life, but she is an example).

dissention · #74 03-02-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Hm. I do think that's what she did when we had our spat on her board that caused me to leave it permanently.

And, as I've suggested, perhaps you can, in a sense, still take the higher road by expressing your disrespect for someone in a way that is matter-of-fact and not spiteful. I don't know. The question is...is it okay to disrespect someone as a person if your feelings are presented in a polite manner.

Feelings and actions of disrespect depend entirely on the person and the situation. I can be quite disrespectful, I'd never attempt to say otherwise. There are times when people get on my goat so much that I actively try to disrespect them. Take religious people, for example. I have such a disdain for religion that when people talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that, sometimes I'll take glee in offending them. But I'm only human and I'm not perfect. We all have things that get on our tits and we'd all be miserable if we never spoke up.

dissention · #75 03-02-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Okay, I'm inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly, but this goes back to something touched on earlier. I do believe that Nancy is opposed to gay marriage, so...

(And this isn't all about Nancy, since there have been others, on here and in my "real" life, but she is an example).

If I remember correctly, she doesn't approve of gay marriage but she doesn't support an amendment to ban it, either.

I could care less who the person is, once you start to approve of discrimination and taking someone's rights away, you become disrespectful.