Should "I'm So Afraid" be Kerry's campaign song?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I am going to laugh, sadly, but laugh, when Kerry loses. And then all you guys will be up in arms about it. But do you think you will come around to admitting Kerry has made a lot of ****ty decisions? That he was the wrong candidate at the wrong time? That the mass of people in that gray middle area of politics just don't see enough of a difference between him and Bush? Think about it, all they see is a guy who has nothing to offer but complaints about the current administration. You and I can agree he's right on Bush. But why not stand for something and declare it? The great politicians, Huey Long and Bobby and Tip O'Neill and Paul Wellstone, stood for something. And they weren't afraid to say what it was. Kerry is a failure. He deserves to lose.

I don't think you'll be laughing very much because the guy is going to win the election. Mark my words. But he has made very ****ty decisions and his campaign has turned me off big time. His desperation to go as far to the right as possible is pathetic. However, underneath all of it, I get the feeling that he truly is a good guy at heart and wants the best for all of us. Unfortunately, he's not going about it the right way and it's making him look like the grandest of fools.

[Vianna]

I couldn't let that one about no atrocities in Vietnam go-what do you call Mylai?

[estranged4life]

using Motorhead's "Ace Of Spades"....But...

[dontlookdown]

Carne -

I think without realizing it, you have swallowed what Bush has been spoon-feeding. The way the administration spins Kerry's speeches (and the way Fox News does) is exactly the sentiment you share.

Flip-flopping is what people who always think in black and white call statements that are made out of intellectual curiosity and progressive thought.

Kerry supported an Iraq invasion only with the support of the U.N. He had no idea how badly Bush would go on to f*ck it up (his words).
He never flip-flopped on that. He took the intelligence to heart and believed with the support of the UN and the rest of the western world, that it was a smart thing to do. He has never flip flopped from that idea.

His Vietnam experience was the same as every college-educated forward-thinking American at the time. It turned out to be a wrong war - so he protested. But he believed that he should serve his country so that's what he did.
What highly educated person wouldn't protest the Vietnam War? This is not a suburban kid who has never traveled. Kerry is bright.

And we've all gotten so used to a President who only looks at issues and the world in black and white. He is unable to form complex sentences because he can't think in a complex way (maybe it was all the booze and cocaine).

Kerry thinks through issues and he changes his mind. He will continue to do that. That is how Massachusetts has become one of the most progressive states in the nation. People like Kerry have put education and the environment and the economy first - above everything else.

No matter what you think of the man, to not vote for him is to endorse the sickening immoral environmental roll-backs that Bush has done. Roll backs that are now allowing coal-burning factories to spew more mercury into the air we breathe and the water we drink. These are the kind of roll backs that are making it next to impossible for the average American to NOT be able to afford a piece of fish at the market that isn't loaded with PCB's and mercury.

I say vote for the man who governs not for himself or his own wallet, but one who can make legislation that achieves the best balance for everyone. The only weapon of mass-destruction I know of is the guy that occupies the White House.

[gldstwmn]

Nice post, dontlookdown. Thank you.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

Carne -

I think without realizing it, you have swallowed what Bush has been spoon-feeding. The way the administration spins Kerry's speeches (and the way Fox News does) is exactly the sentiment you share.

Flip-flopping is what people who always think in black and white call statements that are made out of intellectual curiosity and progressive thought.

Kerry supported an Iraq invasion only with the support of the U.N. He had no idea how badly Bush would go on to f*ck it up (his words).
He never flip-flopped on that. He took the intelligence to heart and believed with the support of the UN and the rest of the western world, that it was a smart thing to do. He has never flip flopped from that idea.

His Vietnam experience was the same as every college-educated forward-thinking American at the time. It turned out to be a wrong war - so he protested. But he believed that he should serve his country so that's what he did.
What highly educated person wouldn't protest the Vietnam War? This is not a suburban kid who has never traveled. Kerry is bright.

And we've all gotten so used to a President who only looks at issues and the world in black and white. He is unable to form complex sentences because he can't think in a complex way (maybe it was all the booze and cocaine).

Kerry thinks through issues and he changes his mind. He will continue to do that. That is how Massachusetts has become one of the most progressive states in the nation. People like Kerry have put education and the environment and the economy first - above everything else.

No matter what you think of the man, to not vote for him is to endorse the sickening immoral environmental roll-backs that Bush has done. Roll backs that are now allowing coal-burning factories to spew more mercury into the air we breathe and the water we drink. These are the kind of roll backs that are making it next to impossible for the average American to NOT be able to afford a piece of fish at the market that isn't loaded with PCB's and mercury.

I say vote for the man who governs not for himself or his own wallet, but one who can make legislation that achieves the best balance for everyone. The only weapon of mass-destruction I know of is the guy that occupies the White House.

these are good points, i think
amber

[blinker12]

I am going to laugh, sadly, but laugh, when Kerry loses.

How can you say that? If you were really a liberal, the very prospect of Bush winning re-election would be enough to start you applying for Canadian citizenship.

[Johnny Stew]

That is one of the best posts I've read in all of these political debates, dontlookdown.
Thank you for that.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

Flip-flopping is what people who always think in black and white call statements that are made out of intellectual curiosity and progressive thought.

I think the flip-flopping argument that the right makes is among the most ludicrous and desperate at this point. Arianna Huffington wrote a fantastic article the other day about how absurd it is for them to make the argument when Bush's entire administration is the chief flip-flopper. She talks about how he promised to give $15 billion towards the fight against AIDs and he hasn't. He promised to give $3 billion to fight AIDs to South Africa, but he's only given $200 million. He pushes bills thorugh and then fails to fund them, etc. He said he was against nation building, now he's doing that very same thing. I think you can find the article at http://www.ariannahuffington.com . It's a long read, but it's fantastic. I love Arianna!

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

Kerry supported an Iraq invasion only with the support of the U.N. He had no idea how badly Bush would go on to f*ck it up (his words).
He never flip-flopped on that. He took the intelligence to heart and believed with the support of the UN and the rest of the western world, that it was a smart thing to do. He has never flip flopped from that idea.

Sorry, but this is where I begin to disagree. Regardless of what intel he was given or shown (and it's now confirmed even by other Senators that some of the stuff they were shown was totally fabricated), he should have voted no. This war was illegal and morally reprehensible from the get-go and Kerry is smart enough to know that if it smells like BS, it's probably BS. His state of Massachusetts, the state that elected him to represent them, did not agree with going to war. Our state was opposed to it, yet he still voted in favor of it. Now, I knew that Iraq had no weapons, I'd known that since the mid-nineties. Why didn't Kerry know? I think he wanted to believe that there were weapons, honestly. The first red flag that the intel was bull**** was when the government flat-out refused to divulge any information about where they obtained the intel. That smells fishy to begin with. Now, he still supports going into Iraq and refuses to call it a mistake and he refuses to say that his vote was a mistake. If anything, that is what is going to cost him the election. His inability to admit that what happened in going to war was wrong will kill him. I always loved Kerry and I still do to a certain extent, but his vote to go to war continues to pain me to no end.

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

His Vietnam experience was the same as every college-educated forward-thinking American at the time. It turned out to be a wrong war - so he protested. But he believed that he should serve his country so that's what he did.
What highly educated person wouldn't protest the Vietnam War? This is not a suburban kid who has never traveled. Kerry is bright.

MIght I add, Kerry VOLUNTEERED to serve in Vietnam. He was not drafted, he volunteered to serve there. Once there, I can imagine his shock at the atrocities being committed; atrocities that some veterans still refuse to admit occurred. If anything, he was being most patriotic when he returned and spread the word about the crimes against humanity that were happening over there. The veterans who begrudge him for his actions in that arena have lost a bit of my respect. He wasn't accusing any particular people, he was making a general statement about the crimes being committed by our men. And those crimes were committed and will forever be a stain on our flag.

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

And we've all gotten so used to a President who only looks at issues and the world in black and white. He is unable to form complex sentences because he can't think in a complex way (maybe it was all the booze and cocaine).

The world is black and white to his base and those are the only people he caters to, to hell with the rest of the country. As for his inability to form sentences, I've suspected for ages that he is afflicted with a combination of mental retardation and dyslexia.

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

Kerry thinks through issues and he changes his mind. He will continue to do that. That is how Massachusetts has become one of the most progressive states in the nation. People like Kerry have put education and the environment and the economy first - above everything else.

I agree 100%. His record on the environment is stellar, though I'm a bit dismayed that he would not even touch the Kyoto Protocol if elected, even though his running mate supports it. And, unfortunately, he voted in favor of No Child Left Behind. Funded or unfunded, the entire thing is ****, just the MCAS in Mass. I want him to beat that bastard Bush, but it's an uphill battle, especially when you take into consideration the fact that he's voted with Bush almost every time since 2000.

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

No matter what you think of the man, to not vote for him is to endorse the sickening immoral environmental roll-backs that Bush has done. Roll backs that are now allowing coal-burning factories to spew more mercury into the air we breathe and the water we drink. These are the kind of roll backs that are making it next to impossible for the average American to NOT be able to afford a piece of fish at the market that isn't loaded with PCB's and mercury.

Very good points.

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

I say vote for the man who governs not for himself or his own wallet, but one who can make legislation that achieves the best balance for everyone. The only weapon of mass-destruction I know of is the guy that occupies the White House.

Kerry's not perfect, let's face it. He isn't to going to please me or anyone else all the time. But he's a god next to Bush the anti-Christ.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by blinker12

How can you say that? If you were really a liberal, the very prospect of Bush winning re-election would be enough to start you applying for Canadian citizenship.

[MikeVielhaber]

Originally Posted by dontlookdown

Yuck. Sounds like Carne Vaca has swallowed what Bush has spoon-fed half of the nation.

I don't think Kerry has a thing to worry about. Even if he isn't elected, he has a lifelong career of respected public service to be proud of.

What does Bush have?

A failed presidency

Failed domestic and foreign policy

Cocaine and alcohol abuse

Two businesses that he drove into the ground

The list goes on....

Can you imagine waking up every morning and having to be Bush?

What a loser!

so of course....you hating bush and all....bush has only bad things to look forward to....but kerry has a very optimistic future

[dissention]

Originally Posted by MikeVielhaber

so of course....you hating bush and all....bush has only bad things to look forward to....but kerry has a very optimistic future

Of course. Bush's jig is up, darling, he will no longer be able to lie to the American people and kill their brothers and sisters. It's all over for him in January.

[MikeVielhaber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Kerry's not perfect, let's face it. He isn't to going to please me or anyone else all the time. But he's a god next to Bush the anti-Christ.

well now...if we're gonna bring Christ into this....Atleast Bush sticks by his faith and his religion. Kerry claims to be catholic (which I am too) but then stands against so many things his supposed church teaches. i have a lot more respect for Bush in that aspect.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by dissention

Of course. Bush's jig is up, darling, he will no longer be able to lie to the American people and kill their brothers and sisters. It's all over for him in January.

I'll miss making fun of Shrub's Coke+Drunk+Texan=Ass

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by MikeVielhaber

so of course....you hating bush and all....bush has only bad things to look forward to....but kerry has a very optimistic future

Where in his post does he say anything about "hate"? Why do you find it necessary to bring "hate" into it?