Shipper?

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by hayley

I was amazed at just how much they made me LOVE Wesley.

LOVE Wesley. And I was very pleased to find out that he and Alyson Hannigan are married in real life!

Okay, okay, back to the topic at hand...

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

"Randy Giles?! Why not just name me Horny Giles?! Or Desperately-Needs-A-Shag Giles?!"

I think I might be in the minority, but I really enjoyed the whole arc of Angel season 4. I'm not sure if it plays out quite so well watching it on DVD all at once, but week by week, I thought it was really exciting and a lot of fun. Though it was a shame that Charisma Carpenter's role got so diminished. (What exactly happened there? I know there were rumours at the time about contract disputes and such.)

At any rate, I vastly preferred it to the arc of the seventh season of Buffy. [DON'T READ BEYOND THIS SENTENCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.] That started out really strong, but very quickly fell apart, I thought. The "Look at all the Slayers!" thing got boring pretty quickly, as none of those characters were terribly interesting. And while it was nice to have lots of old guest stars back in the mix, I didn't think they used the First Evil as a villain (or Spike as a brainwashed minion) as well as they could have. In the plus column, though: I like that they brought back the high school, and I enjoyed Principal Wood's character (though his lineage felt a little forced and contrived to me). And it was great to have Andrew back.

But overall, I think Buffy's seventh season suffered from the same thing that plagued the latter half of season six: It felt like Joss wasn't as involved or paying as much attention, and both the major plot arcs and the writing often became clumsy or overwrought or just plain ridiculous. ("Smashed" is my cut-off point. After that, the show just seemed to adopt a very odd change in tone and take a rapid nose dive, from which it never fully recovered, at least not consistently.)

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IMHO, the series took a bit of a nose-dive after Angel left, but I'm an Angel groupie so don't mind me . I was also sad to see Oz go and I never really got into Tara. Oh, Anya was a great addition as a regular . Okay, wait, I said I was going to get back on topic!

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by hayley

I thought the ep "Shiny Happy People" where Jasmine first starts taking over the world with her joy was great.

Is that the one that begins with Fred running through LA searching for safety while "Wouldn't It Be Nice" plays? I love that scene.

I think my favorite arc on Angel was the fall of Wesley, and the Wesley/Lilah relationship. I loved seeing Wesley's darker side there.

Yes yes yes. Great stuff, and Mr. Denisof did an amazing job portraying it.

I really feel like the sixth and seventh season had so many missed opportunities, so many weird characterizations, and so many other problems, but it didn't really bother me as much as most- probably because I came to the show late and didn't have to suffer through it as it was playing in real time. I love certain things about those seasons- episodes like Fool for Love, Conversations with Dead People, Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Storyteller. I loved the Trio. I loved the IDEA of the First Evil, I just hated the execution and the screwups.

Again, yes yes yes, and I too love each of those individual episodes that you mentioned.

The strange about watching season six in "real time": I didn't dislike it so much at the time. The first part of the season had been so strong, that when the bad episodes started, I forgave them somewhat and figured they were just a hiccup, and things would get back on track soon. And then there were some individual episodes that gave me hope. But by the summer, looking back on the season as a whole, it just seemed really disappointing. The ratio of good/great/amazing episodes to ehh/ugh episodes seemed completely reversed from previous seasons. The bar had been dropped in a big way, and while some of the seventh did bring things back up a little, it very rarely achieved the same heights that the first five seasons did so regularly. And again, a lot of that has to do with just bad, clumsy plotting and seemingly uninspired writing. (One of the things I hated most about season seven: "Ooh, wait, do you think Giles might be the First Evil? Huh? Maybe? Maybe? Ooh! Wait... Nahhhh, just kidding! Haha! Phew!" What the hell was the point of that?)

I will also be ambivalent until the end of days about giving Spike a soul, but still having Buffy treat him like a subhuman. Either let him keep his soul (and his balls) and never have Buffy, or give him his soul, take his balls, and let him be a man Buffy can and will be with. Don't neuter him and then not even reward him in the end. It ticks me off a little.

Yeah, Spike's story just got too muddled and compromised in the end. I think a large part of this is that there was no real consensus among a lot of the writers about what attitude to take towards him, whether he would ultimately be good or remain inherently evil, how to portray him, where to go with his "soul-searching," etc. (I don't even remember, how did Spike get his soul? He skipped town at one point towards the end of season six, right? And then suddenly was back and kind of insane at the beginning of season seven, and had a soul for some reason?)

I'm glad to hear you like Andrew, Jyqm. So many hate him, and I love him.

I always found him entertaining, and I really liked the "Trio" for most of that season.

Question: As someone who watched all the seasons at once in a very short amount of time, what did you think about Jonathan as part of the trio, with such an increased role on the show? He was something of a cult favorite for long time during the second and third seasons, with his rather sparse appearances, almost always in danger or just being nerdy and off to the side for a very brief scene, and then I think fan reaction to his becoming a prominent "villain" was very mixed.

Random memory: Those damned Columbine kids really screwed up the ending of season three. The episode "Earshot" was never aired until the end of that summer, right before season four started, and the third season finale wasn't aired until several weeks after it was supposed to be, and then it was edited to cut down on a lot of the violence. It aired uncut and on time in Canada, though, so the episode became very heavily traded online during those few weeks.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

IMHO, the series took a bit of a nose-dive after Angel left, but I'm an Angel groupie so don't mind me .

Hey, but at least he got his own show!

I always liked Angel (and liked watching David Boreanaz's evolution as an actor over the course of his tenure on both shows), but I was glad to see him leave Buffy. The Buffy-Angel plotline had reached a natural conclusion, and to try and milk too much more drama out of it would have just come of as contrived, I think. Part of me wishes they'd done the same with Spike at some point.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Before "Wrecked," Willow's arc was really going somewhere interesting. Her increasing use of and dependency on magic was shown as being indicative of her exploring the darker parts of her nature, becoming obsessed with her newfound power and confidence (two things she never had much earlier in the show), and becoming increasingly averse to dealing with problems in her life in a normal way. Then suddenly it was as though the writers decided that was all just too subtle and complex for them, and in the span of a single episode, they completely changed her character arc and turned her into this helpless junkie, then proceeded to make the whole plotline as heavy-handed as possible.

I'm with you here. The thing is, and as you say, they couldn't leave Willow that way, they had to bring her back to the "center" of the group which she always was in the beginning and throughout most of the series. She's the anchor of the show and, and so they couldn't let her delve too darkly into the "black arts" and keep her there. You're right, they could have handled this a bit differently, they could have nuanced her character as kind of a bad-ass magician without having her deep-end that way.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Hey, but at least he got his own show!

I always liked Angel (and liked watching David Boreanaz's evolution as an actor over the course of his tenure on both shows), but I was glad to see him leave Buffy. The Buffy-Angel plotline had reached a natural conclusion, and to try and milk too much more drama out of it would have just come of as contrived, I think. Part of me wishes they'd done the same with Spike at some point.

Oh, agreed. And I suppose leaving the fans wanting more was the best tactic they could have taken. But of course I still pine for those two...they are the ultimate, tragically star-crossed couple. ARGH! It frustrates me to no end!

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

I'm with you here. The thing is, and as you say, they couldn't leave Willow that way, they had to bring her back to the "center" of the group which she always was in the beginning and throughout most of the series. She's the anchor of the show and, and so they couldn't let her delve too darkly into the "black arts" and keep her there. You're right, they could have handled this a bit differently, they could have nuanced her character as kind of a bad-ass magician without having her deep-end that way.

I think part of the reason they took the tack they did was because they wanted Willow to be the "big bad" at the end of the season, but there were a lot of episodes to fill between "Smashed" and the finale... So by adopting the drug metaphor and having her "OD" and then become a "recovering junkie" of sorts, they were able to put that storyline on hold and bring her back to the center of the group for a while, as you said, before having her "relapse" toward the end after Tara's death.

I think they still could have done this - have Willow realize that she'd gone a little overboard and lay off the magic for a while - without resorting to the "magic = drugs and drugs are BAD!" metaphor. Especially since, throughout the course of Willow's "relapse" at the end of the season, the focus is never on the idea that magic is a drug to which she's addicted, but rather that magic is a means for her to avoiding coping with the pain of Tara's senseless death, as well as a way for her to feel that she has the power (however corrupt) to fix the situation and set things right. But oh well. An opportunity lost.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

(I don't even remember, how did Spike get his soul? He skipped town at one point towards the end of season six, right? And then suddenly was back and kind of insane at the beginning of season seven, and had a soul for some reason?)

Remember, he went to go fight that demon thingy in that cave , he defeated it, and then his soul was restored. That's how I remember it anyway.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

Remember, he went to go fight that demon thingy in that cave , he defeated it, and then his soul was restored. That's how I remember it anyway.

Oh yeah... what episode was that? Were those scenes interspersed in the last two episodes of season six?

He skipped town shortly before that saying something like, "I'll give that bitch what she deserves, show her what I'm capable of," something like that, right? And it was big mystery all summer whether he'd gotten his soul restored or his chip removed or what.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

He skipped town shortly before that saying something like, "I'll give that bitch what she deserves, show her what I'm capable of," something like that, right? And it was big mystery all summer whether he'd gotten his soul restored or his chip removed or what.

Yep that's it.

[Merf]

Originally Posted by CreepingDeath

I happen to support this team as well (in the midst of all the Ron & Hermione shippers). We're a rare breed my friend.

Word!

PS, Hayley, I love the crap out of Andrew, too. He was the best part of the last few seasons of BTVS for me.... well besides all the hot Spuffy sex, etc.

Merf n' Hayley 4 Lyfe, Julianmother****ingSARK, puppies & kitties, hearts & flowers, etc.

[SuzeQuze]

Dammit. I didn't think I could care about a Hollywood couple ever again but Rachel Bilson and Adam Brody (Seth and Summer of The O.C.) have done it to me. They're just so adorable!