Police: Man shot 'not connected' to bombings

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

.
I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

Unfortunately, he's not alive to tell his side of the story. And there are two sides to every story.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Unfortunately, he's not alive to tell hi side of the story. And there are two sides to every story.

Well, the reports of the running from the law, etc. from the press are based on eyewitness testimony and not what the police said. So, that is another side.

I just think this was a horrible mistake based on a strange set of facts.

I mean the guy was wearing a winter coat in August - that is just bizarre.

So you really think the police deserve no slack here? I think they do, though I also think the officers should be reprimanded in some way. Again, if that guy had had a bomb, which his actions pointed to, they would be heros. But, her did not and despiste the odd facts that pretty much all pointed to him having a bomb, the police were wrong and that is just not acceptable in a free society.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by madformac

22nd regiment special air services have engaged Al Qaeda in Afganistan for sure, possibly Iraq and most probably Pakistan already.. As for first round, everywhere Bush's pack of bloodhounds have gone after them, we have gone in too due to Blair's tongue so far up W's ass he has to say yes..

Sorry, I meant in your own country. I am well aware of how the Brits have stood with us through many a conflict.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

So you really think the police deserve no slack here?

Did I say that?
I don't know. Surely there are surveillance tapes. That should give a pretty good indication of what happened. According to the BBC now, he was shot eight times. I'd at least like to see what he was wearing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4713753.stm

Police shot Brazilian eight times

Mr Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.
Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Security sources said Mr Menezes had an out-of-date visa, but his family denied this. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he believed he was legally in the UK.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened at Stockwell.

World press ponder attacks
Victim's final journey

He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Brazilian media reports say British human rights lawyer Gareth Peirce is acting as the family's legal adviser, amid reports that they are considering suing Scotland Yard.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) will investigate the shooting.

Nick Hardwick, head of the IPCC, said the commission needs to find out the truth of what happened "to ensure it can never happen again".

He said that "if people haven't acted in accordance with the law and their training" they would be held accountable.

Mr Straw met Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim in London, where they discussed the return of Mr Menezes' body to Brazil.

Both Mr Straw and Mr Amorim said they believed he was living in the UK legally - though there are reports that his precise immigration status is still being checked..

"I haven't got any precise information on his immigration status, my understanding is he was here lawfully," Mr Straw said.

The Home Office could not confirm his immigration status but said they were looking into it "as a matter of urgency".

Suspects named

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it

Ken Livingstone
London mayor

A total of five people have been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings and the police have named two suspects: Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, also known as Muktar Mohammed-Said, and Yasin Hassan Omar, 24.

'Support police'

Tony Blair said he was "desperately sorry" an innocent man had lost his life.

The prime minister said it was right for Britain to express its "sorrow and deep sympathy" to Mr Menezes' family.

But he said the police must be supported in doing their job.

He added that they would have been criticised had the suspect turned out to be a terrorist and they had failed to take action.


Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it."

On Friday morning, Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station.

He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance.

When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force

Maria do Socorro

Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian papers in London.

Police chased him on to a Tube train where he was shot dead.

Cancer treatment

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers as to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before his immigration status had been questioned, said she thought the police had acted "like amateurs".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Ms Socorro said the family were considering suing over the shooting.

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away - if that is indeed what he did do."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Did I say that?
I don't know. Surely there are surveillance tapes. That should give a pretty good indication of what happened. According to the BBC now, he was shot eight times. I'd at least like to see what he was wearing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4713753.stm

Police shot Brazilian eight times

Mr Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.
Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Security sources said Mr Menezes had an out-of-date visa, but his family denied this. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he believed he was legally in the UK.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened at Stockwell.

World press ponder attacks
Victim's final journey

He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Brazilian media reports say British human rights lawyer Gareth Peirce is acting as the family's legal adviser, amid reports that they are considering suing Scotland Yard.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) will investigate the shooting.

Nick Hardwick, head of the IPCC, said the commission needs to find out the truth of what happened "to ensure it can never happen again".

He said that "if people haven't acted in accordance with the law and their training" they would be held accountable.

Mr Straw met Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim in London, where they discussed the return of Mr Menezes' body to Brazil.

Both Mr Straw and Mr Amorim said they believed he was living in the UK legally - though there are reports that his precise immigration status is still being checked..

"I haven't got any precise information on his immigration status, my understanding is he was here lawfully," Mr Straw said.

The Home Office could not confirm his immigration status but said they were looking into it "as a matter of urgency".

Suspects named

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it

Ken Livingstone
London mayor

A total of five people have been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings and the police have named two suspects: Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, also known as Muktar Mohammed-Said, and Yasin Hassan Omar, 24.

'Support police'

Tony Blair said he was "desperately sorry" an innocent man had lost his life.

The prime minister said it was right for Britain to express its "sorrow and deep sympathy" to Mr Menezes' family.

But he said the police must be supported in doing their job.

He added that they would have been criticised had the suspect turned out to be a terrorist and they had failed to take action.


Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it."

On Friday morning, Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station.

He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance.

When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force

Maria do Socorro

Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian papers in London.

Police chased him on to a Tube train where he was shot dead.

Cancer treatment

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers as to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before his immigration status had been questioned, said she thought the police had acted "like amateurs".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Ms Socorro said the family were considering suing over the shooting.

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away - if that is indeed what he did do."

No you did not say that. I was inferring, etc. Mea Culpa if I was wrong, which I think I was

Cool article BTW

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by madformac

I can also blame them for following a regime of fear and murder that has ended in the deaths of millions over many years..

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?

I think it applies to all regimes ever. I cannot think of one that was pure - I mean from the Egyptians and before to the Romans and Catholics until now and the Muslims are certainly no fan of peace. People on the whole just suck a$$.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think it applies to all regimes ever. I cannot think of one that was pure - I mean from the Egyptians and before to the Romans and Catholics until now and the Muslims are certainly no fan of peace. People on the whole just suck a$$.

I didn't ask the question with a right answer in mind. My answer is, I'm really not sure. I have my ideas though.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

People on the whole just suck a$$.

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck.

I meant societies in general. I mean look at the history of the world. Every society eventually implodes. The Egyptians did, the Romans did, in many ways the Catholic Christendom did and still is. So, I did not mean individual people as much as I meant the collective mindset of societies. I do think there are good individuals. Having said that, everyone has done crappy things. But, I think most people try to do the right thing. I am sure no one got that but me

[madformac]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?

You could look at it from differing views...

Reagan, Rumsfeld and the CIA were in bed with Saddam for a number of years when Iran was the big bad enemy. If the US funded Saddam's regime which included chemical and biological warfare on its neighbour, not to mention being fundamentally murderous and evil in this period, a period when many stood behind the Ba'ath party and it's ideals then the blame for the current unrest could be attributed, at least in part, to the invading nation..

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by madformac

You could look at it from differing views...

Reagan, Rumsfeld and the CIA were in bed with Saddam for a number of years when Iran was the big bad enemy. If the US funded Saddam's regime which included chemical and biological warfare on its neighbour, not to mention being fundamentally murderous and evil in this period, a period when many stood behind the Ba'ath party and it's ideals then the blame for the current unrest could be attributed, at least in part, to the invading nation..

I think there is no question the main reason the US was scared of SH's cache, and he most certainly had one at one time and IMO still had one when we invaded though it is hidden - was that we gave it to him in one way or the other That is a very scary concept once ya get it

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think there is no question the main reason the US was scared of SH's cache, and he most certainly had one at one time and IMO still had one when we invaded though it is hidden - was that we gave it to him in one way or the other That is a very scary concept once ya get it

The only pure reason for the USA to believe he had weapons of mass destruction in the first place without physical evidence is if a previous administration funded and supplied them..

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by madformac

The only pure reason for the USA to believe he had weapons of mass destruction in the first place without physical evidence is if a previous administration funded and supplied them..

Well, it wasn't just the US, it was the world via many unanimous resolutions by the UN. But, then the head of the UN's family was making millions off of the Oil for Food which depended on the WMD and, sadly, resulted in the death of what could be millions, a significant portion of which were children. That is why when people get all up in arms about W's invasion (which pissed me off too mind you) I just sort of scratch my head and say - well we have lead the world in doing the same thing in another equally BS guise for about a decade now - so it is unfair to just get on W about doing essentially the same thing I mean death is death and "we" have been killing hundreds of thousands there for years before W.

On top of all of this was SH, who certainly made it easy.

Can't we establish a colony on the moon and only let good people in

[Serrart]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck.

I don't agree, I think politicians reflect in a way or the other their electors. I'm not saying the all the societies are evil but at the end, when people feel in danger, or are starving, or are scared they silently delegate their leaders to get their hands dirty to improve things. Obviously if their politicians fail, people remember how evil they are and look for new guides.

Romy