Should Stevie have left the Mac with Lindsey in the 80s?

[KateTheCursed]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

My big point is that Stevie's leaving the band hurt her career and Fleetwood Mac's career for a few years, and all you want to do is talk about "forced" vs. "decided," which is a miniscule part of my discussion.

Perhaps you meant "you" as in "you all" and were making sweeping generalization. Or perhaps you did not notice that you were responding to someone who was replying to you for the first time and as such had made no mention of whether FM really had anything to "decided." In fact I will gladly admit that if Warners' asserted pressure that FM (in what ever incarnation Mick could piece together) had very few options at their disposal. So please don't attribute my very small statement into this elaborate idea that you have about certain Stevie fans wanting to divert your discussion because it I'm playing that game.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

And then they sue the tobacco companies as if they were the ones who forced them to light up in the first place. Personal responsibility has gone the way of the dinosaurs, Le Stew.

You said it, brother! My favorite is the folks who sue fast food establishments for causing their obesity.
Stuff your face full of double-decker burgers every day, then wash them down with milkshakes, and guess what's going to happen, Einstein.

I gained weight because my fat ass didn't know when to say "when" -- not because Mayor McCheese force fed me.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

You said it, brother! My favorite is the folks who sue fast food establishments for causing their obesity.
Stuff your face full of double-decker burgers every day, then wash them down with milkshakes, and guess what's going to happen, Einstein.

I gained weight because my fat ass didn't know when to say "when" -- not because Mayor McCheese force fed me.

You are what you eat, so if people eat all that fat, that's what they'll be.

Those lawsuits are utter jokes. Someone even tried to sue Nabisco over their Oreo cookies.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

You said it, brother! My favorite is the folks who sue fast food establishments for causing their obesity.
Stuff your face full of double-decker burgers every day, then wash them down with milkshakes, and guess what's going to happen, Einstein.

I gained weight because my fat ass didn't know when to say "when" -- not because Mayor McCheese force fed me.

Nevertheless, I challenge you to be a rock star, or even a person, in the late seventies and not do coke. Go on, use your wayback machine...just try, bet you can't!!!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Nevertheless, I challenge you to be a rock star, or even a person, in the late seventies and not do coke. Go on, use your wayback machine...just try, bet you can't!!!

Tina Turner is a good example, but you probably weren't being literal. It still doesn't absolve anyone of personal responsibility, nor does it make the "no one ever told they were bad" excuse any less laughable. Common sense tells you that if you snort an illegal substance up your nose that has weird effects on you, it probably isn't healthy.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Tina Turner is a good example, but you probably weren't being literal. It still doesn't absolve anyone of personal responsibility, nor does it make the "no one ever told they were bad" excuse any less laughable. Common sense tells you that if you snort an illegal substance up your nose that has weird effects on you, it probably isn't healthy.

So, you are trying to tell me Tina didn't ever do coke? Okay, rock stars with kids are discounted from the challenge....
what are you talking about? Obviously, the nose was put there by god, to ingest healthful substances....

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

what are you talking about? Obviously, the nose was put there by god, to ingest healthful substances....

My nose just loves to ingest spinach and vitamin c tablets. Shame on Stevie for putting that nasty cocaine up there.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Those lawsuits are utter jokes. Someone even tried to sue Nabisco over their Oreo cookies.

Or the guy who sued because he held his Pop-Tart down in the toaster and it caught his kitchen on fire.
Gimme a break.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Or the guy who sued because he held his Pop-Tart down in the toaster and it caught his kitchen on fire.
Gimme a break.

Um, great. Did you use your wayback machine yet, set it to "rock star in the mid/late seventies/early eighties" and not do coke? or, wait, better set it to "biggest rock act of the late seventies" to really get the full impact.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't think there's anything wrong with disagreeing with your point that Fleetwood Mac was "forced" to go on without her. She didn't hold a gun to their heads.

Nobody said she did However, Stevie's decision forced Mick, John, and Christine to do one of two things: break up or go on without her. If they were going to continue to be a band, which made complete sense after what happened in 1992/1993, it was going to have to be without Stevie, by Stevie's own choice. Just as they were forced to be Fleetwood Mac without Peter, Bob, and Lindsey.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Lindsey had already left, Rick quit, Billy quit (though he eventually came back), Christine didn't want to tour anymore.... to pin any damage to Fleetwood Mac's career on Stevie and her decision to leave, seems a bit near-sighted.

This is where I disagree. We can't really bring Lindsey into the discussion, as he had been out of Fleetwood Mac for five or six years at that point. Rick would probably have come back into the fold if Stevie were there, and Billy would have likely stayed knowing that there was going to be some stability within the group. Sure, Christine wouldn't have been on the road, but she would have been there in the studio. So, I think a lot of the damage can be attributed to Stevie's departure.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

By the way, if you go back a few more years to Lindsey's departure, it would seem that his defection set in motion the chain of events that lead to Fleetwood Mac eventually being regarded as, in your words, "a souped-up covers band."

Put that kind of blame on him in the company of LB fans, and, trust me, you won't get any better of a reaction than you get from Stevie's fans.

Big difference, though. When Lindsey left, the band was still a hit machine with a hit album and even a hit single. Christine and Stevie were still in the band, and they're the two who had all but three of the big hits. With the "Time" band, NONE of the folks fronting the Big Mac were in the band in the shows. Plus, it's not like Billy and Rick were doing a ton of Lindsey's material. I think they did all of two songs from Lindsey and four from Peter. By their second tour, they were only doing ONE Lindsey tune and three Peter tunes. Hell, Bob Welch did like four Peter Green tunes on his last tour with Fleetwood Mac.

Some could even blame Christine. The reason I don't is that, save for a short tour for "The Dance," Christine has stayed off the road. It wasn't Fleetwood Mac she was leaving, it was the road. Christine said that she wouldn't tour anymore, but would continue recording with Fleetwood Mac, which is exactly what she did. Now, if Stevie had stayed off the road, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd totally understand her decision. But, let's face it, Stevie very well couldn't tour as a solo artist if she was still a part of the band, but not touring with the band.

When "As Long As You Followed" and OSOTM weren't hits, it should have been obvious that the big hit days were over for Stevie and the Mac and that they'd do better as a band than as solo artists. Let's face it, BTM was the most successful album any of them, including Lindsey, were involved with between 1987 and 1997. And, their tours were very successful. Fleetwood Mac may not have been a huge hit, but it was viable, which is more than can be said about Fleetwood Mac or Stevie Nicks after she quit the band.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by KateTheCursed

Perhaps you meant "you" as in "you all" and were making sweeping generalization. Or perhaps you did not notice that you were responding to someone who was replying to you for the first time and as such had made no mention of whether FM really had anything to "decided."

"You" as in "you all." When you've been a part of the Fleetwood Mac on-line community as long as a lot of us have been (nearly ten years here), you tend to notice certain patterns amongst certain fans.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by amber

Um, great. Did you use your wayback machine yet, set it to "rock star in the mid/late seventies/early eighties" and not do coke? or, wait, better set it to "biggest rock act of the late seventies" to really get the full impact.

I'm really not a good guy to put to that challenge. I've been around people who smoke, have done drugs, drink excessively, and so on.... but I've never even been so much as tempted. I'm always the sober guy annoyed with everyone else for making idiots of themselves.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm really not a good guy to put to that challenge. I've been around people who smoke, have done drugs, drink excessively, and so on.... but I've never even been so much as tempted. I'm always the sober guy annoyed with everyone else for making idiots of themselves.

Ooh, we're agreeing a lot tonight.

My father was a heroin junkie and living with that, I've grown to not have a very compassionate view towards drug users. Personal responsibility is not something that magically disappears.

[CreepingDeath]

Originally Posted by dissention

My father was a heroin junkie and living with that, I've grown to not have a very compassionate view towards drug users. Personal responsibility is not something that magically disappears.

Mine was too. Except I didn't live with it for very long because he died in a car accident when I was six. That messed with my head for quite awhile, and I actually turned to drugs briefly in high school.

I'm so glad that ****'s over.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CreepingDeath

Mine was too. Except I didn't live with it for very long because he died in a car accident when I was six. That messed with my head for quite awhile, and I actually turned to drugs briefly in high school.

I'm so glad that ****'s over.

Aww, I'm sorry.

My father was a lucky bugger. He was a heavy heroin user from the time he was in his early-twenties and the bastard never bit the dust. In 2000, he robbed almost ten convenience stores to support his habit and got sent up the river. And can you believe he got out in four years? It's insane. I want nothing to do with him and haven't even spoken to him in five years.