Global Empires - Page 4

amber · #46 12-28-2004, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, take Afganistan - what should we have done there - let the Taliban exist? Another example is Hitler or the Kaiser before him - should we have just let Germany appoint another Kaiser or another Hitler - of course not. I think the problem comes when we chose the people to supplant the overthrown govt. A good example of this is SH.

But, to say the U.S. should never help overthrow a horrible dictator and then control his replacement so that another is not in the job is just wrong.

we often overthrow them and replace them with someone who works for our interests, by that i mean business, corporate interests, and not for the welfare of their own countries' people.

Yes, evil despots are bad. But what we replace them with is bad, too.

I have the feeling we could talk about this forever...

amber · #47 12-28-2004, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madformac

After 9/11 when all air traffic was banned from American airspace for 3 days the climate actually changed... It became 1-2 degrees colder in the day and a degree warmer at night....

Yeps.

strandinthewind · #48 12-28-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Conserve! Be reasonable with consumption. Recycle. Don't waste money. Real in greed. Live by principles that all men are created equal. Use the Golden Rule. God I guess I'm an idealist but to me the answers are right in front of your face.

But that is so subjective. I mean who here does without to the point of hurting. Who here if they can afford it thinks twice about putting on the AC in July. I know of no one here in Atlanta that does. That can be extrapolated to a million things like going to the grovcery store only once every two months to save gas. Not going out at night to party to save gas. I mean who does that much less even think about it

For my part, I turn off the climate control when I am not there and I rarely use it when it is nice outside. I turn off the lights in my house when I am not using them. I also take the train to work. I think if everyone did things like that, that would go a long way

But, there are people who could find their version of "fault" with me doing just that.

So, I get that we should conserve, but my point is that test is way way way subjective. So, I just do what I think is good.

strandinthewind · #49 12-28-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

The solution is not to be greedy resource grubbing humans.

Another solution is to demand from our politicians and corporations that they function as clean as technology allows for, which we do not even come close to doing. And people want our products because our global capitalism campaign has been so very successful. Not because they need everything. Do indiginous amazonians need TV's? Or soda? Or video games? No, no one needs those things.

But advertising makes them think they do...

But aren't yoy forcing your thoughts of what they need on them? Why shouldn't they know about these things. Why shouldn't they have access to t.v. Why shouldn't they have access to modern over the counter drugs that could save their lives.

Plus, we are all greedy by some subjective standard. I went to three or four concerts last year. One would have been enough. But, I had the cash so why not? Am I a bad person for that? I do not think so. But, other people may think I am. Thus, where is the line to be drawn and who gets to deceide that?

amber · #50 12-28-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But that is so subjective. I mean who here does without to the point of hurting. Who here if they can afford it thinks twice about putting on the AC in July. I know of no one here in Atlanta that does. That can be extrapolated to a million things like going to the grovcery store only once every two months to save gas. Not going out at night to party to save gas. I mean who does that much less even think about it

For my part, I turn off the climate control when I am not there and I rarely use it when it is nice outside. I turn off the lights in my house when I am not using them. I also take the train to work. I think if everyone did things like that, that would go a long way

But, there are people who could find their version of "fault" with me doing just that.

So, I get that we should conserve, but my point is that test is way way way subjective. So, I just do what I think is good.

Exactly. Sad, what we think we need, isn't it? Sad what we've been sold to think we need...

amber · #51 12-28-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But aren't yoy forcing your thoughts of what they need on them? Why shouldn't they know about these things. Why shouldn't they have access to t.v. Why shouldn't they have access to modern over the counter drugs that could save their lives.

Plus, we are all greedy by some subjective standard. I went to three or four concerts last year. One would have been enough. But, I had the cash so why not? Am I a bad person for that? I do not think so. But, other people may think I am. Thus, where is the line to be drawn and who gets to deceide that?

*sigh*

strandinthewind · #52 12-28-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Who said this?

I am unsire what you are asking. I was responding to Amber's suggestion that it is never necessary to supplant a govt. If Amber did not say that, then I misunderstood her.

strandinthewind · #53 12-28-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

*sigh*

But, I am correct. I mean we all could exist driving a Prius (sp.?) and living in a studio apt. But, that will never happen. Human beings are just not that way. i base this conclusion on the thousands of years of people not living this way

amber · #54 12-28-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am unsire what you are asking. I was responding to Amber's suggestion that it is never necessary to supplant a govt. If Amber did not say that, then I misunderstood her.

I didn't say never necessary. I responded with something about the ones we put in place, etc. Also, i think i said evil despots are bad.

strandinthewind · #55 12-28-2004, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

America does.

Nice try - the rest of the world does as well. After all, they sell their products here as well - yet you do not point that out. It is all, as i noted before, America is the evil one

strandinthewind · #56 12-28-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

I didn't say never necessary. I responded with something about the ones we put in place, etc. Also, i think i said evil despots are bad.

touche'

amber · #57 12-28-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, I am correct. I mean we all could exist driving a Prius (sp.?) and living in a studio apt. But, that will never happen. Human beings are just not that way. i base this conclusion on the thousands of years of people not living this way

some humans are that way. For instance, in Africa, the amount of water i use to take a shower would last them a week. In fact, humans lived in America for countless centuries, uh, not needing things besides food and shelter, etc. People over the world still live this way. But again, we obviously come from different spectrums of what people need. And yes, it is not feasible to "go back", but it is feasible to "have and consume less" And why couldn't we all drive a Prius?

"The Earth Does Not Belong to Us, We Belong to the Earth"

strandinthewind · #58 12-28-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

You mean you base this conclusion on people being told, for thousands of years, that people can't live this way.

No - I think it was the way we evolved. I mean I think the cavepeople had heirarchies. Interestingly, this system exists in some form in just about all species. The lions have their king, the bees have their queens and drones, dogs have the alpha, etc. So, think that while certainly humans evolve through perception and teaching, the inant wanting of better is and always has been there.

amber · #59 12-28-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux

You mean you base this conclusion on people being told, for thousands of years, that people can't live this way.

strandinthewind · #60 12-28-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

some humans are that way. For instance, in Africa, the amount of water i use to take a shower would last them a week. In fact, humans lived in America for countless centuries, uh, not needing things besides food and shelter, etc. People over the world still live this way. But again, we obviously come from different spectrums of what people need. And yes, it is not feasible to "go back", but it is feasible to "have and consume less" And why couldn't we all drive a Prius?

"The Earth Does Not Belong to Us, We Belong to the Earth"

I agree we all could. Will it ever happen. No. Humans will never go for that - for whatever reason. So, I say live your live and thry to conserve where you can. That is all an individual can really do.

And - why is it that those people in Africa who could use your water would want to have the luxury you do. I know this is a generalization, but who here does not take a shower when they feel like it. Who actually says, i am not going to shower for a week because it will be better for the environment?