Earlier or later writings better?

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Well, the pony and phoney line is beyond words because it's so bad, but I like when it gets very low and then kicks back up towards the end. Love that part.

yeah. Vocally, it is interesting. And pretty.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

I gave a long ass explanation a few weeks ago:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=248

I think that the big reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of her later work is because, for me, something about her writing started to awry in the late eighties and the songs became much less relatable than they were before. I think she's at her best when there's a large sense of ambiguity to her songs. When she started to write songs like "Ghosts," "Two Kinds of Love," "That Made Me Stronger," "Sweet Girl," "Silver Girl," "Welcome to the Room Sara," and others along those lines, the songs became less universal and too personal in detail for me to enjoy very much. I know that I, personally, really have no desire to know how Stevie's depends on her music like a husband or how she talked to her famous friend last night. I don't know the woman, and never will, so it just strikes me as TMI and it begins to cloy. Others like that stuff and more power to them if they enjoy it, but I enjoy her work that doesn't explicitly refer to herself and her career and her dinners with friends about her songwriting. I can't get into them because I have a hard time relating. I like Silver Girl because it's quite vivid, but I don't enjoy it on the same level as something like Sable On Blonde because I'm not a girly-girl, I'm not lost in a hardcore world, and I don't have or look like a million bucks. It may just be me, but I listen to those songs and really don't give a fiddler's fig. Unfortunately, that's the turn her writing took and I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I think she's a master at taking incredibly personal feelings and emotions and writing them into songs everyone can relate to, but I think she lost a bit of that over the years. Doesn't mean she can't be good when she wants to be because she can still knock her material out of the park, but I think it's come to point where for every fabulous song she records, she records a stinker to go along with it. Maybe she's run out of ideas or maybe I'm just a cold prick with no empathy or emotion, who knows. But those are the reasons I, personally, don't enjoy her new material that much.

As for the rest of your post:

1. Trouble In Shangri-La was written in 1995, which is amazing to me.
2. EFO is a good song, but it's another one of her "me songs." And those are the ones I absolutely despise, normally. Thankfully, she doesn't go as overboard as she does on songs like That Made Me Stronger, which makes it listenable.
3. No one knows if all the SYW are about Lindsey, half the time I think that the two of them are just bull**** artists who continue to create the "drama" and "romance" to sell albums and make cash (that's certainly their onstage schtick). But the fact that she still writes songs (Thrown Down) about this particular guy after their relationship ended almost 30 years ago is just odd to me. If she wants to do so that's fine, but I've lost interest in those particular songs for the most part.

Having read through everything, I completely understand the way you feel. I think you may (or may not--you decide) have oversimplified it before. Is it crappy, sloppy, mediocre songwriting, or is it simply something you personally can't relate to?

On that note, (and I know I've said this before) I think "That Made Me Stronger" is universal. It's simply about the realization that you have to do things on your own, that you can't always rely on someone else being there to help you along. I think it also has some good lines about love gone wrong that are universal, like, "Don't call me when you're lonely" "The conversations ring in my head, I remember everything that we said, all those tears that we shed..." I don't think it's a fantastic song at all, lyrically or musically, but I think it's universal.

And finally, it is my opinion that if all of those songs are supposed to be understood to be about Lindsey and Lindsey is in on it as well, I cannot for the life of me understand why that's just okay with everyone, especially when there are lines like "You can't have him--I do have him, most of the time." And it only gets worse after those lines. I might've taken the kids and left him at that point. If it's all a joke, then I don't see why it's funny. This is part of why I like to think of the music as being about what I want it to be about.

Hillary

[HejiraNYC]

I think if you removed the music and the vocals from the equation, and just focused on the lyrics in isolation, it appears that very little has changed between 1975-1986 and 1997-2003. I think everyone can pretty much discount the intervening years as being a bit of a creative void from which little light emerged. Today, as then, Stevie ran the gamut from maudlin to profound. "Oh, mirror in the sky, what is love," is sweetly innocent, but it is also cloyingly maudlin at the same time, just as "Just like a river, it's neverending" can induce cringes. At the same time, she was elegantly lucid, even terse then ("No speed limit; this is the fast lane") as now ("Love that starts out in the darkness doesn't do well in the light"). In a way it would be almost dull if she was as coldly precise with every song as, say, Joni Mitchell. Just like it would be rather dull if she had a 6 octave soprano voice. We love Stevie because of her despite her apparent weaknesses as a musician/songwriter. When she soars, we cheer, and when she tanks, we pull for her.

Now, when you add the music back into the equation, I think the difference becomes much more apparent. For example, I don't think Stevie has in her the capability to produce another masterpiece on a par with "Edge of Seventeen" or "Gypsy" or "Bella Donna" or even "Sleeping Angel." Her newer songs, even when produced by Lindsey, don't have the same kind of intensity and melodic urgency of those older songs. Even as wonderfully captivating and haunting as TISL is, it does not have the timeless quality of the songs she had recorded 20-some years earlier.

Even moreso than the deterioration of her vocal range, I think the apparent blandness of her newer material can be attributed to her choice of collaborators. I think she was extremely lucky to have been able to work with Tom Petty, Jimmy Iovine, et al., who really knew what to do with her material. But then she made several bad decisions- collaborating with Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby, Rick Nowels, Rupert Hine, Sheryl Crow and the most egregious of them all... MIKE "Desert Angel" CAMPBELL. I think he has been the "deadliest poison" to Stevie's songs. The only recent exception to this was John Shanks, who is, IMHO, one of Stevie's best collaborators ever.

[Johnny Stew]

As I've said, ad naseum (but, hey, if dissention gets to repeat himself, so do I! ), I don't have to relate in a literal way to every single thing I listen to, in order to enjoy it.

I'm a 32 year old lower-middle-class gay man, listening to lyrics written by a 56 year old wealthy straight woman. Of course I'm not going to relate to every single thing she has to say, in a literal way... but, at the same time, it's still relatable in regards to the larger, "human-condition" angle of it.
We all have our struggles, our triumphs, our highs & lows... that's the only thing we ever need relate to. Understanding that we're all on the same journey, and that we're all basically trying to acheive the same goals (love & happiness).

A line like "she depends on her music like a husband" may not be relatable to someone's life in a direct way, but who out there cannot relate to depending on SOMETHING to fill a void in their life? Drugs, alcohol, casual sex, being a workaholic, spending endless hours on the internet... people don't tend to rely on those things, or even seek them out in a major way, unless they're trying to fill some void in their lives. Whether we wish to admit that or not.
And that void is often a lack of true intimacy or companionship of one sort or another.

And, no, I don't relate to having a famous friend tell me to write my songs by myself, but I sure as hell relate to having a friend tell me that I don't need anyone else's guidance or help -- that I'm perfectly capable of confronting life's challenges on my own.

Other songs, like "Sweet Girl" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," are pretty exclusive to Stevie's personal experiences, but, in those instances, she's offering a glimpse into her world. Like a friend (forgive me for sentimentalizing the relationship between songwriter and listener by comparing it to that of two bosom buddies) who's been around the globe... or in drug rehab... and has returned to tell you about her journeys and experiences.
So, again, you might not be able to relate to the specific experience, but the capability is certainly there to relate to the human condition.

Not that I'm offering a brand new perspective on things, but I think the difference between Stevie's earlier writing and her current writing, is that she's cut through a lot of the "veiling"... she steeped her early writing in vague (though compelling) imagery, while her current writing is more straight-forward and clear-headed overall.

I love the dignity and maturity in her current writing, and I love the youthful longing of her earlier work... quite simply, I enjoy watching this woman's journey.

[strandinthewind]

Ah the shippers against Diss

I think TD is evidence that their relationship has not been over since the 70's. I think Diss. focuses too much on the sexual aspect of it. I think that aspect has reared its head ( ) intemittently over the last 20 or so years. I think that is what TD refers to - I mean she said so - she said that everytime there was a reconciliation some barrier was thrown down to stop that from seeing its fruition. So, to say the relationship as a whole has been over, dead, done with, never again, finis since the 70's is contrary to her own recent words that it comes and goes and has done so for a long time. I note this is not necess. a sexual thing - although I think it has been

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

And finally, it is my opinion that if all of those songs are supposed to be understood to be about Lindsey and Lindsey is in on it as well, I cannot for the life of me understand why that's just okay with everyone, especially when there are lines like "You can't have him--I do have him, most of the time." And it only gets worse after those lines. I might've taken the kids and left him at that point. If it's all a joke, then I don't see why it's funny. This is part of why I like to think of the music as being about what I want it to be about.

I don't think "Everybody Finds Out" is about Lindsey at all. Not even in the least.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't think "Everybody Finds Out" is about Lindsey at all. Not even in the least.

I think he is in there somewhere - but I think the song is not really about him. I think it is about someone else - maybe Henley because he used to send a private jet to get her after a concert - presumably a midnight plane. But who knows

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think she was extremely lucky to have been able to work with Tom Petty, Jimmy Iovine, et al., who really knew what to do with her material. But then she made several bad decisions- collaborating with Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby, Rick Nowels, Rupert Hine, Sheryl Crow and the most egregious of them all... MIKE "Desert Angel" CAMPBELL. I think he has been the "deadliest poison" to Stevie's songs. The only recent exception to this was John Shanks, who is, IMHO, one of Stevie's best collaborators ever.

I'll give you Kenny G., Bruce Hornsby and Rupert Hine, but I think her collaborations with Rick Nowels, Sheryl Crow and Mike Campbell, typically rank amongst her best.

I agree though, that John Shanks is easily the best producer, overall, that she's had since Jimmy Iovine.

I also agree that a lot of that earlier "urgency" is missing from her current songs. It's still there at times... "Trouble In Shangri-La," "Fall From Grace," "Everybody Finds Out" and parts of "Illume"... but not quite enough for my tastes. A little more of that vibe would be a GREAT thing, in my book.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think he is in there somewhere - but I think the song is not really about him. I think it is about someone else - maybe Henley because he used to send a private jet to get her after a concert - presumably a midnight plane. But who knows

Stevie has said, on more than one occasion, that as intensely as she loved Lindsey, and as much as she may wish it had worked out for the two of them, he is not the man she considers "THE love of her life."

I feel that's either Don Henley or Joe Walsh (ahh, those Eagles!).

You may be right about Henley being in the lyrics to "EFO" somewhere, but I really don't feel that Lindsey is. At all.

In fact, my feeling is that "EFO" isn't really about Stevie's experiences, but is a rare instance of her writing from someone else's perspective.

[DeadliestPoison]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Her newer songs, even when produced by Lindsey, don't have the same kind of intensity and melodic urgency of those older songs. Even as wonderfully captivating and haunting as TISL is, it does not have the timeless quality of the songs she had recorded 20-some years earlier.

That's really interesting that you say that, because I was just thinking about how, to me, "Everybody Finds Out" is a VERY urgent, straight-forward, intense song. It's almost on par with Fall From Grace in terms of intensity (interesting to note that they're both sort of "surprise" songs -- everything's fairly normal on the album and then there's a song that comes out swinging).

I have to agree, though (and even though you made the point with TISL), that EFO isn't necessarily as timeless as say Landslide or Rhiannon. EFO is going for a sort of 80s-esque vibe (which seems to be what the cool kids are doing nowadays) that I think will make it sound a little dated in 5-10 years. RAL's full of synths, and that sounds pretty dated - it's sort of the typical 80's synthy poppy album. OSOTM was lite rock personified. While it, IMO, is not as dated as RAL, you can tell it's from the late 80's/early 90's.

Everybody Finds Out is sort of in the vein of that. It's not classic Fleetwood Mac, it's not quite classic Stevie, and it's not quite 80's Stevie. It sort of stands on its own when compared to other songs that don't match the urgency and intensity of it.

Er.. what was my point?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Stevie has said, on more than one occasion, that as intensely as she loved Lindsey, and as much as she may wish it had worked out for the two of them, he is not the man she considers "THE love of her life."

I feel that's either Don Henley or Joe Walsh (ahh, those Eagles!).

You may be right about Henley being in the lyrics to "EFO" somewhere, but I really don't feel that Lindsey is. At all.

In fact, my feeling is that "EFO" isn't really about Stevie's experiences, but is a rare instance of her writing from someone else's perspective.

I thought that as well for while - like she was being cryptic about another's love affair. I just cannot get over that midnight plane and the apparent connection to Henley. Maybe Walsh sent her one too.

Also, I do not remember reading her ever saying LB was not one of the three great loves of her life

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Not that I'm offering a brand new perspective on things, but I think the difference between Stevie's earlier writing and her current writing, is that she's cut through a lot of the "veiling"... she steeped her early writing in vague (though compelling) imagery, while her current writing is more straight-forward and clear-headed overall.

That's the thing--I can't help but prefer the vague but compelling imagery. I want it back! But that's me.

Thanks for those last few posts, y'all (Hejira, Jason, Brian, and Greg). They have been very interesting to read.

Hillary

[skcin]

Originally Posted by amber

But - I think she says "you come running out in the wind with"

Ooops. Brain fart, I guess. I was reading your response thinking 'of course she says "running" silly' and then I re-read my post. Duh.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also, I do not remember reading her ever saying LB was not one of the three great loves of her life

One of the three, definitely, but this seems to be another instance where Lindsey couldn't quite manage to reach #1.

[amber]

Originally Posted by skcin

Ooops. Brain fart, I guess. I was reading your response thinking 'of course she says "running" silly' and then I re-read my post. Duh.

oh! you know what i thought she said on the other part? "Traffic goes, through the fog" so dumb...