Kerry files FEC complaint against critical veterans group

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I do - but I like to watch them all. The only one I really cannot watch at all is Hannity because I think he is unintelligent. I can take someone having a different opinion, but I do not suffer fools very well, esp. when they are just shouting idiotic things.

Have you read "Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them"? The chapter on Insanity and Colmes is great, the whole book is, actually. I just got another copy in paperback because Franken updated it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you read "Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them"? The chapter on Insanity and Colmes is great, the whole book is, actually. I just got another copy in paperback because Franken updated it.

I LOVE that he updated the re-release in paperback

I read most of it. I tend to get bored with books like that because I, being anal retentive - spend HOURS looking up all of the stuff

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I thought this was a good article - I think Bob Dole has hit the nail on the head. I think people cannot reconcile why Kerry protested against Nam when he returned but is touting his work there as the fundamental underpining of his platform for the Presidency. I reconcile them in my head by noting that Kerry volunteered to go to Nam and served with honor. W used family connections to stay here and it is apparent he did not work that hard, if at all. Cheney got five deferments because according to him he had other or better things to do (I forget the exact quote). So, Kerry winds there. Regarding Kerry's post-service actions, I think Kerry was pissed off that he and others were sent to Nam based on Johnson's lie in the Gulf of Tonkin. I think he realized the US had gotten itself into a quagmire and was refusing to admit defeat and come home. I think he saw the horror there (friends killed or hurt - shooting innocent Vietnamese because who knows if they were secretly armed, etc.). I think Kerry decided to do something about that. I think that is a valid choice that IMO has honor, like his service record. As for his test. before Congress, alot of the cut off heads, etc., stuff was based on things that soldiers told him they saw. He was not saying he saw what they said THEY saw. He also did not say every soldier there was doing this - yet that is the lasting implication errouneous as it may be. So, I think Kerry wins here as well.

The problem is most Americans see Kerry as a traitor because he dared to raise his voice against the govt. They cannot see it was a noble and honorable thing to do and that it helped in some way to stop more of our soldiers from dying in a war that we lied to get into and that we were refusing to withdraw from just so we could save face. How that is not an honorable thing, I will never know

Bob Dole has no point and the Viagra has obviously taken a toll on his mental stability. What he's saying is that because there is a good number of vets who are speaking out against Kerry, some of what they're saying must be true. What horse****. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. I can spek out with 100 other people at my side that George Bush used to shoot heroin, but that doesn't make any of it true.

I think it's really sad if Americans see Kerry as traitor for what he said about Vietnam when he had the support of the majorit yof the country when he said those things. There is no question that what he said happened, it's well-documented. We committed atrocities, there is no denying it. We did not jsut shoot them, we maimed them, tortured them, cut off their limbs, raped the women, you name it and we did it. Yet these vile men are spinning what he said and it's despicable to the point where I think they're embarassments to this country.

Kerry IS a war hero, like him or not.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I LOVE that he updated the re-release in paperback

I read most of it. I tend to get bored with books like that because I, being anal retentive - spend HOURS looking up all of the stuff

Go to a right-wing blogger, they haven't been able to really find anything wrong with what Franken put in his book. That says it all. Except they thought he was serious about a White House aide breaking Helen Thomas's jaw and hip. And sent her a letter asking if it was true.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Go to a right-wing blogger, they haven't been able to really find anything wrong with what Franken put in his book. That says it all. Except they thought he was serious about a White House aide breaking Helen Thomas's jaw and hip. And sent her a letter asking if it was true.

OH Helen!!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Kerry IS a war hero, like him or not.

Most def.

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think people cannot reconcile why Kerry protested against Nam when he returned but is touting his work there as the fundamental underpining of his platform for the Presidency.

I think this is a correct assessment. There's only one way Kerry could have made a clear statement in this campaign about Vietnam: vote against the Iraq war and explain that just as we had gone to war under false pretenses in Vietnam, we went to war under false pretenses in Iraq. Explain that just as he opposed the war in Vietnam after he returned, he opposed Iraq now.

Trying to paint himself as some kind of ultra-patriot for having fought in a war that he himself decried with such vehemence was way more than a mere tactical error. It was a huge strategic blunder.

[Patti]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Most def.

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks

You know, Jason, ITA. It seems pretty easy to reconcile in my head, particularly if you either lived through Vietnam or read any of the history about it. I was just a kid, but even I remember all the controversy surrounding all the atrocities that happened there. I don't think Kerry was wrong at all to report what he saw/heard. And you're right, at that time a lot of vets were trying to just get us the hell out of there after their experiences. I don't get it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I think this is a correct assessment. There's only one way Kerry could have made a clear statement in this campaign about Vietnam: vote against the Iraq war and explain that just as we had gone to war under false pretenses in Vietnam, we went to war under false pretenses in Iraq. Explain that just as he opposed the war in Vietnam after he returned, he opposed Iraq now.

Trying to paint himself as some kind of ultra-patriot for having fought in a war that he himself decried with such vehemence was way more than a mere tactical error. It was a huge strategic blunder.

Oh good lord are you starting this again

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Oh good lord are you starting this again

Incidentally, I have my suspicions that The Scream was stolen by Kerry's campaign. They're probably going to use it as as campaign poster, seeing that the likeness to Kerry is uncanny.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Incidentally, I have my suspicions that The Scream was stolen by Kerry's campaign. They're probably going to use it as as campaign poster, seeing that the likeness to Kerry is uncanny.

Yes it is

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Most def.

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks

And what I'm saying is that looking down on Kerry for his congressional testimony is wrong. You don't just read what he said and say, He was wrong. You need to look at the context in which it was said AND look at the time sin which it was said. At the same time, his sentiments were the sentiments of the majority of America. So, I think they are in the wrong to judge him based on those statements.

[dissention]

An example of what we're dealing with:

This morning on Washington Journal on C-SPAN, there was a new host named Jason Damata of mixed ethnicity. A Republican called in and told him to "go back to parking cars."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

An example of what we're dealing with:

This morning on Washington Journal on C-SPAN, there was a new host named Jason Damata of mixed ethnicity. A Republican called in and told him to "go back to parking cars."

Was his former occupation a valet

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

And what I'm saying is that looking down on Kerry for his congressional testimony is wrong. You don't just read what he said and say, He was wrong. You need to look at the context in which it was said AND look at the time sin which it was said. At the same time, his sentiments were the sentiments of the majority of America. So, I think they are in the wrong to judge him based on those statements.

I agree - I just do not know if the vast majority of Amercians can or will make that distinction