Producer for a new album

[snwriter]

Yeah, Stevie's career was on a downward trend, but she was in no danger of being forgotten. She would always have strong sales for her tours and her albums would still send around 400,000. I bring up these points because some listers say things such as Stevie's solo stuff is not good or lacks meat as if it were a fact, when it is not. There are many people who disagree, and so I point to her popularity and her sales figures as proof. I see just as many weak spots in Lindsey's solo stuff as hers and I relisten to hers much more than his. Just as so many people on this forum defend Lindsey and attack Stevie, I feel she must be defended as well when the overall quality of her work is ridiculed.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by snwriter

Yeah, Stevie's career was on a downward trend, but she was in no danger of being forgotten. She would always have strong sales for her tours and her albums would still send around 400,000. I bring up these points because some listers say things such as Stevie's solo stuff is not good or lacks meat as if it were a fact, when it is not. There are many people who disagree, and so I point to her popularity and her sales figures as proof. I see just as many weak spots in Lindsey's solo stuff as hers and I relisten to hers much more than his. Just as so many people on this forum defend Lindsey and attack Stevie, I feel she must be defended as well when the overall quality of her work is ridiculed.

Check out her tour data for the Street Angel tour, it was her worst ever (and the Timespace and Mirror tours were bombs, too, albeit to a lesser degree).

Street Angel the album took years to finally be certified as a gold album, too. It's been out for ten years and still hasn't been certified platinum, either.

I have no problem with you "defending" Stevie by using facts and figures, just make sure those facts and figures are correct. The ones you posted are not.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by snwriter

I feel she must be defended as well when the overall quality of her work is ridiculed.

But, as you said yourself, we all have different tastes.

Just because someone says they don't like something Stevie released for some reason (for example, my saying I don't like some of the production on her solo work), it does not mean that they are ridiculing the overall quality of her work. You can quote me, I stated very clearly that while I dislike a lot fo the production, I'm still drawn to it because of her performance and her lyrics.

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by dissention

If it wasn't for The Dance, Stevie would be just as ignored as Lindsey.

I disagree. Before the reunion several artists were starting to sing her praises, and I imagine that this would have happened for Lindsey as well. The Dance raised their profiles tremendously, but I don't think think "ignored" is the right word here.

- Jake

[dissention]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

I disagree. Before the reunion several artists were starting to sing her praises, and I imagine that this would have happened for Lindsey as well. The Dance raised their profiles tremendously, but I don't think think "ignored" is the right word here.

- Jake

I do.

[snwriter]

What's wrong with Street Angel only going gold? Most artists FM's age are perfectly happy with a gold album. Again, you're accusing me of posting misleading information when you fail to realize that many longstanding artists, including Lindsey and Christine, would kill for a gold album.

As far as her tours being bombs: If it were true that 3 Stevie tours in a row were bombs, then she would be playing clubs or smaller venues by now, not amphitheaters as she continues to do as a solo act. She even played Madison Square Garden for TISL.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I do.

Well, of course you do... you always look at the most negative side of everything, silly!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by snwriter

What's wrong with Street Angel only going gold? Most artists FM's age are perfectly happy with a gold album. Again, you're accusing me of posting misleading information when you fail to realize that many longstanding artists, including Lindsey and Christine, would kill for a gold album.

As far as her tours being bombs: If it were true that 3 Stevie tours in a row were bombs, then she would be playing clubs or smaller venues by now, not amphitheaters as she continues to do as a solo act. She even played Madison Square Garden for TISL.

As I posted previously, it wasn't certified gold until years after its release. It was not a success by any means, my friend. Aren't you curious as to why her only contributions from '94-'97 were soundtrack songs? Her career was int he toilet. People had grown tired of the schtick and the music was pretty dumpy.

If you don't want to take my word on the tours being '89-'94 tours being bombed, go look them up for yourself. Some of the venues weren't even filled to 30% capacity.

As I said before, Stevie needed the Fleetwood Mac reunion if she was going to have some semblance of a career. It was a success beyond anyones expectations and put her and the rest of the band on the map again. Then she enlisted lots of hot contemporary artists for a new solo album and it did well. No one is taking that away from her. But, what you did was take comments I made about her solo career int he mid-nineties and applied them as if I was talking about her career nowadays. So why bring up TISL?

[snwriter]

Whatever, dissention (appropriately named!).

[amber]

Originally Posted by snwriter

Whatever, dissention (appropriately named!).

ahh, the always pithy and effective "Whatever" argument. A favorite of mine, too.

[jwd]

TISL would have happened with or without The Dance, and it would have been just as good. Sure, The Dance kicked the band back into the spotlight and made everyone love them again. Stevie's inability to connect with the masses from the late 80s to the early 90s came mainly from her battles with inner demons, not because she wasn't artistically viable. Although even some would argue that even then she was still "kicking ass". Stevie forgotten?, I don't think so. Actually I'm looking for her to be inducted into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame real soon.

I'm a Fleetwood Mac fan and a Stevie Nicks fan. I'm not against Lindsey producing her on a FM record. But when she goes solo I'd like other producers to bring out different dimensions or try other approaches to her music. I mean unless you like to hear little spaceship noises or distorted vocals on her tracks all the time, I think we can give Linds a rest. Sorry, the last comment was a stretch, but I couldn't resisit the dig!!!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by jwd

TISL would have happened with or without The Dance, and it would have been just as good. Sure, The Dance kicked the band back into the spotlight and made everyone love them again. Stevie's inability to connect with the masses from the late 80s to the early 90s came mainly from her battles with inner demons, not because she wasn't artistically viable. Although even some would argue that even then she was still "kicking ass". Stevie forgotten?, I don't think so. Actually I'm looking for her to be inducted into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame real soon.

But that's the thing, she wasn't artistically viable. I'm a fan of the Mirror album, so you won't see me knock it, but as soon as she went on the road to promote it, she had lost it. Her musical contributions were very poor after that album; she wrote one out of three songs on her best-of album. She had lost her creativity so much by the time SA rolled around that it didn't even resemble a Stevie Nicks album. Also, there was a great shift from her being cool to her being considered a has-been, and that's what she was considered in the early to mid-nineties. There was also a shift in the tone of her music. She had gone from a hot rocker babe who sang empowering songs to an older woman (still gorgeous, of course) singing "poor me" songs.

Now, I agree that TISL would have happened with or without the Mac reunion, but if she hadn't reuinted with the Mac, it would have had less exposure than Street Angel did. Heck, who knows if she would have even gotten a record deal without that reunion. She would have been forgotten by the masses and that's exactly what happened in '94 and up until the reunion. Without that reunion, her career would not have improved.

As for her kicking ass in '94, hell, even Stevie disagrees with you there.

[snwriter]

It's completely false that she was out of it artistically at the beginning of the '90s. Sure, she wasn't at her peak, but EVERY artist, even all the superstars, have their low points in veteran careers. Did you see any of those tours. She was great on the Street Angel and Timespace tours. And on the Mirror tour she did explore artistically, even though she looked tired. She sang Alice and Juliet, two very etheral songs and put them across very well. And the shows I saw, she nearly sold out. As far as SA not being a Stevie album--ridiculous. It's not my favorite, but Rose Garden, Destiny, Blue Denim, and Kick It kick ass--not bad for a career low album. Stevie disses it so much 'cause she had a huge blowout with original producer Glyn Johns and because the singles stiffed! You could repeat it over and over again Dissension, but there is no way Stevie would ever have been forgotten. She produced too many classics --YES EVEN AS A SOLO ACT -- that she would have had a good shot at making the R&R Hall of Fame-- something that will definitely happen now! Name any other female rocker who has sustained so much success over such a long career. Yeah, there were naysayers, as there always have been with Stevie, who make fun of her twirling and shawls, etc, and her weight gain at the tame was mocked, but she always had her supporters and she WAS NEVER ARTISTICALLY INVALID. You're talking about only two years where she didn't produce anything and even then she wrote the killer song Twisted and sang the hell out of Sheryl Crow's Somebody Stand By Me, one of her best vocals ever.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by snwriter

It's completely false that she was out of it artistically at the beginning of the '90s. Sure, she wasn't at her peak, but EVERY artist, even all the superstars, have their low points in veteran careers. Did you see any of those tours. She was great on the Street Angel and Timespace tours. And on the Mirror tour she did explore artistically, even though she looked tired. She sang Alice and Juliet, two very etheral songs and put them across very well. And the shows I saw, she nearly sold out.

I didn't know that singing new songs onstage could be equated with exploring artistically.

The fact is that most of the songs she released from '91-'96 were not written by her. Her art is songwriting and if she had to resort to recording someone else's work, she was not artistically valid.

She was fantastic on the Street Angel tour, though. Not so much on the Timespace tour, her voice was shot and she was as lethargic as ever.

Again, don't take my word for it that her latter tours were bombs, look up the tour data for yourself.

Originally Posted by snwriter

As far as SA not being a Stevie album--ridiculous. It's not my favorite, but Rose Garden, Destiny, Blue Denim, and Kick It kick ass--not bad for a career low album. Stevie disses it so much 'cause she had a huge blowout with original producer Glyn Johns and because the singles stiffed!

And you know this for a fact? No, you don't. She's said on numerous occasions that the reason she dislikes the album so much is because she wasn't there artistically.

You can name songs that "kick ass," but I don't think they do. She wrote Rose Garden almost thirty years earlier, Destiny twenty years earlier and it certainly is not one of her best songs, Blue Denim is alright but it suffers from some lackluster vocals, and Kick It is pure crap, IMO. Tastes vary from person to person, but those are mine and I'm sticking to them. Compare those crappy songs to even her stuff from RAL and the difference in quality is enormous.

Originally Posted by snwriter

You could repeat it over and over again Dissension, but there is no way Stevie would ever have been forgotten. She produced too many classics --YES EVEN AS A SOLO ACT -- that she would have had a good shot at making the R&R Hall of Fame-- something that will definitely happen now! Name any other female rocker who has sustained so much success over such a long career. Yeah, there were naysayers, as there always have been with Stevie, who make fun of her twirling and shawls, etc, and her weight gain at the tame was mocked, but she always had her supporters and she WAS NEVER ARTISTICALLY INVALID. You're talking about only two years where she didn't produce anything and even then she wrote the killer song Twisted and sang the hell out of Sheryl Crow's Somebody Stand By Me, one of her best vocals ever.

I never said that her classic songs would be forgotten, don't put words in my mouth. I said that as a viable solo artist, she would have been forgotten, and she would have, especially after the Street Angel debacle.

Name more female rockers who have sustained so much success over a long career?

-Tina Turner
-Cher
-Patti Labelle
-Debbie Harry

Should I name more?

I've never mocked Stevie's weight, her shawls, her stage antics, or anything about Stevie. That has no bearing in this thread. However, even Stevie has admitted that she wrote nothing memorable for years and she didn't. But some people just won't recognize a bad song when they hear one. I'm not talking about two years, I talking more like seven.

[EveryHour]

Just my 2 cents on the snwriter/dissention war.....

Sure, Stevie may have been in a bit of "a slump" as a writer from '91 to '95, but to say that period is "artistically invalid" is assanine. And the "slump" was not without reason...battling Klonopin addiction and exploded breast implants could've killed her. Even Stevie may not look back fondly on those years (what she can remember ), but all of the songs from that period still have meaning to me. I do know a bad song when I hear it, and Stevie's worst is still fathoms better than any of those. I stand by that statement even though I'm aware I could never be fully objective with Stevie because she's always pulling on my heartstrings no matter what. But I would never want to change that. I'm happy listening to music from an emotional point of view as opposed to technical. And if part of the total package of Stevie's talent is that she has the ability to stir this up in people, so be it. It comes back, again, to the probability of Stevie being (humanly) unable to listen to the songs at face value without associating them with how sick she felt at the time or her struggles with the industry and producers. There were some outstanding vocal performances (no matter what you think of Bitch, that vocal is awesome! And I couldn't disagree with you more, dissention, about the Blue Denim vocal...), and she didn't record those songs for TimeSpace because she wanted to. As for Street Angel, it was nothing new for Stevie to pull old songs for an album...she loves to do that. I hardly think she was hurting to fill up the album since it has 13 tracks. I love Street Angel (and, as you mentioned dissention, that tour= ), though I could be swayed if I ever came to know Stevie's original artistic vision for the album. (Though I do think Jane should have been on some sort of benefit album so people wouldn't have to wonder why she was singing about a chimpanzee, and been replaced with Inspiration. But that's another thread......) I understand also, dissention, that part of your thread was simply presenting facts, but I simply don't care what the numbers are. She never would have ceased to mean the world to her true fans, and to argue whether or not The Dance was the sole reason for her career revival is kind of a big "what if" that is uninteresting to me personally. It could never be proven, so why waste your time? What I am sure of is that a lot of fans are grateful for The Dance or they may have never known of FM or Stevie!

dissention~Though snwriter did specifically mention you in her post, I don't think he/she necessarily meant the entire thing to be geared at you (in reference to you telling her to not put words in your mouth). Some things you said just triggered him/her to go off on a tangent, just as I have here I think it's obvious that I, for one, am not as well-spoken as you...and that's when passion takes over! I think my keyboard is smokin'!.