Which one is the best lyricist ?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Thanks, David. If I said this, it would just be dismissed as Stevie hating because I am a bigger fan of Lindsey's.

That's not entirely true, bud.
David said that, despite the fact that her lyrics might not stand up for him when he looks at them from a critical literary standpoint, they do appeal to him "where it counts," because she has a way of drawing you into her world, and showing you that world thru her eyes.

David asserted that Stevie is not necessarily the most clever of lyricists, but that she basically doesn't have to be, because her lyrics possess a compelling and "arresting" quality that he finds appealing.

He was analytical, but he wasn't being belittling or dismissive. So that's why even the most hardcore of fans probably wouldn't consider his post to be mere "Stevie hating," even if they didn't entirely agree with his assessment.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

Hmmmm.....I see a glaring contradiction in (David's) post.

I respectfully disagree. See my above post for the reasons.

[snwriter]

Stevie, by far.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by Lux

Lindsey. He definately has weak moments (Caroline seems to be a constant joke), but still, Lindsey.

Caroline? What's wrong with Caroline? I actually love its lyrics! "Dusty fury on the mountain top" - that's wonderful! I realize there's no accounting for taste - I just am surprised you pick that one to represent bad lyrics. Now, "Family Man" on the other hand....

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by face of glass

While Lindsey has improved notably over the years he still has some moments of weakness in the past, something that even the music can't always cover up (yes, it's "Oh Diane" I'm talking about).

I was just listening to "Oh Diane" in the car today and thinking it was fun. Am I the only one who likes it? I realize that the metaphor about one grain of sand slipping through hands slowly is problematic (it should be GRAINS of sand) but hey, maybe Richard Dashut wrote that line. They are both credited, you know.

[wondergirl9847]

I love Oh Diane, Family Man, Only Over You and Caroline. Most of these are on Least-Liked lists.

"Time recedes with a fatal drop
Dusty fury on the mountain top."

LOVE that!!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by wondergirl9847

"Time recedes with a fatal drop
Dusty fury on the mountain top."

LOVE that!!

That is a terrific couplet... I love it too. Excellent imagery there.

And don't worry, Christy... I know alllllllll about loving songs that are on other fans' "least-liked" lists!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

There is not cut-and-dry answer to this question. Early on, Stevie was by far way ahead. These days, I'd go with Lindsey.

Hmmmm. While I agree LB is stellar these days, he was also stellar in 1975 with ISA, which is sardonic and delicious at the same time. On SYW - I think LB goes into "new" ground, but most of the songs on there by him are around 8 years or more old, e.g. Say Goodbye and the GOS stuff. So, I think to make a reference to comparing LB with Stevie these days, you kind of have to look at Stevie and LB from 1987 until today. I mean that makes the comparison fair. I would put her TISL stuff, esp. the title track, ahead of LB's stuff. I also think if you compare Stevie's four newest songs "Illume, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," and "Silver Girl" with LB's one (WTWCT) Stevie wins that one. WTWCT cannot compare with Say You Will (electricity of love - fever dance - etc.). In the end, Chris' songs ALWAYS made me happiest and still do to this day. Who cannot hear "SWWEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTT Wonderful you . . . " and not just smile - she is second. LB's songs make me listen perhaps more to the music, but that is not really fair I guess, because although alot of his 80's stuff is too simplistic for me (Family Man, Caroline, etc.), the man can write a song like no one else - but he is third. Stevie's songs, on the other hand, take me to another level altogether especially when she sings them. So, I guess Stevie wins as the best for me amongst three incredible writers. Perhaps no one is surprised there I also think it is hysterical when Stevie says it bugs LB to no end when she sits down and writes a song in like ten minutes, when it takes him longer But and again, I think all three are incredible and the comparison is a little unfair as all three of them are VERY different in style.

BTW - I like Bob Welch's stuff alot, but of the pre-spoiled brats ( ChiliD ) members and other than Chris (solely because of Why), I would have to go with Peter Green, who I still maintain could be those most talented of them all to this day.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I was just listening to "Oh Diane" in the car today and thinking it was fun. Am I the only one who likes it? I realize that the metaphor about one grain of sand slipping through hands slowly is problematic (it should be GRAINS of sand) but hey, maybe Richard Dashut wrote that line. They are both credited, you know.

I don't know why people dis that song either. I've always loved Oh Diane and his Lindsey-does-Elvis vocals. Very catchy, simple melody with unchallenging words. The song is very special to me.

Also, Nancy, I don't think "Love is like a grain of sand, slowly slipping..." is problematic at all. Because he is talking about one grain of sand, that does not necessarily exclude it from being one of many grains of sand that are slipping through the hand. In fact, I think the metaphor works because of that. It adds to the sense of isolation, if that makes any sense. Like, one walking alone in a crowd kind of thing.

Nevertheless, your comment forced me to think this through and understand why I didn't have a problem with the image. I had never dwelled on it before; I just accepted that's what he meant.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Hmmmm. While I agree LB is stellar these days, he was also stellar in 1975 with ISA, which is sardonic and delicious at the same time. On SYW - I think LB goes into "new" ground, but most of the songs on there by him are around 8 years or more old, e.g. Say Goodbye and the GOS stuff. So, I think to make a reference to comparing LB with Stevie these days, you kind of have to look at Stevie and LB from 1987 until today. I mean that makes the comparison fair.

You are so silly sometimes. Why would you have to take into account her songs going back to 1987 for the comparison to be fair? How about taking into account songs that go back to the Rumours sessions? Isn't that when the first demo of "Smile at You" appeared? And isn't "Running through the Garden" almost as old?

I would put her TISL stuff, esp. the title track, ahead of LB's stuff. I also think if you compare Stevie's four newest songs "Illume, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," and "Silver Girl" with LB's one (WTWCT) Stevie wins that one.

I don't care for the TISL stuff, and therefore have never paid more than cursory attention to it. I couldn't even sing you one verse from that whole album from memory. Since it doesn't draw me in and Lindsey's more recent stuff does, I make my judgment based on that.

Now, I am merely going to laugh at your presenting "Silver Girl" as credible evidence that Stevie's writing is top-notch these days. I'm laughing so hard I can barely stay sitting. How many drinks had you had when you wrote that?

As you know, I have some problems with "Illume" and I won't get into them again here. Suffice it to say that I think the song could have been much better, yet the musicality of it is very fetching. "Say You Will" is a catchy song with terribly mundane lyrics. And "Destiny Rules," well, I realize a lot of people like it, but to me it is just something I listen to when I forget to fast-forward. Coastal cities and diamond snakes and all that. Silly imagery if you ask me.

WTWCT cannot compare with Say You Will (electricity of love - fever dance - etc.).

Now, pray tell, why is "electricity of love" such a brilliant phrase? I bet you if I google that phrase I am going to find it, and variations of it, repeated thoughout the history of the written word. "Fever dance" is an interesting image but when I hear it I see images of people spinning and shaking their heads in a trance in the dark with red lights shining on them. I'm not sure what that has to do with love, but I guess people have interpreted that to mean the act of love-making. Hey, to each his/her own, know what I mean?

Also, you pick WTWCT as the one example of Lindsey's lyricism in SYW? Come on. The song is actually not bad except for the moon reference. What the hell is he talking about?

Be that as it may, lyrically Lindsey is so far ahead of Stevie in SYW that arguing about it is futile. Even the simplicity of "Steal Your Heart Away" is far better than the atrocity that is "Silver Girl."

[strandinthewind]

Bless your heart Carne, did you read what I said

I said LB wrote, I think, only one "new" song specifically for this FM record and he wrote it after, I think, the year 2000. All of his other songs were written at least since 1987 or so. I used 1987 because: (1) LB said he wrote thebrilliant SG when he left FM in 1987 because he was too emotionally void to live up to his contract to tour; (2) many of the the GOS songs were in place by 1997 or perhaps earlier, and; (3) LB tried to sell his GOS final stuff to Warners in, I think, 1999. So, in response to your statement that LB has improved, I was merely pointing out that a fair current comparison of LB and SN's work on SYW would have to encompass all songs by both in the same time period. I do not see how that is a stretch of logic just because SN is willing and able to put her music out there and LB for whatever reason is not So, I specifically mentioned Stevie's post 1987 new songs, which excluded Silver Spings, and used some as a comparison to LB's post 1987 work. I then noted Stevie wrote four new songs in 2001 for SYW and that of those, the songs SYW and Illume (not Silver Girl and DR - although I like them) have superior lyrics to LB's only new contribution - WTWCT. I then noted that her new stuff on TISL should also be used as all of the new stuff apparently was written about the time of the The Dance tour and when LB was trying in vain to sell GOS. My point is Stevie has more released work from the same period and that released work is better IMO.

I also specifically stated I think LB and CM are great as well. I just think Stevie is better.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I was just listening to "Oh Diane" in the car today and thinking it was fun. Am I the only one who likes it? I realize that the metaphor about one grain of sand slipping through hands slowly is problematic (it should be GRAINS of sand) but hey, maybe Richard Dashut wrote that line. They are both credited, you know.

I love it and always have.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Now, pray tell, why is "electricity of love" such a brilliant phrase? I bet you if I google that phrase I am going to find it, and variations of it, repeated thoughout the history of the written word. "Fever dance" is an interesting image but when I hear it I see images of people spinning and shaking their heads in a trance in the dark with red lights shining on them. I'm not sure what that has to do with love, but I guess people have interpreted that to mean the act of love-making. Hey, to each his/her own, know what I mean?

And I'm surprised you didn't mention that it should be "fevered dance" and not "fever dance." It is, after all, another example of her bad grammar.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I used 1987 because: ...[bla bla blah]

I knew what you meant. But the timing issue gets tricky, especially since the continuum of time in which Stevie's songs were written is longer than Lindsey's. So keeping that in mind, we have to go with what was released most recently. And from that collection of songs, regardless of when they were written, Lindsey's are lyrically superior to me.

I said that in the early days, Stevie was far better lyrically. Judging from what was released then, I stand by that comment , I'm So Afraid and Go Your Own Way notwithstanding. (interestingly, I find Planets of the Universe to be rather uninspired. The "dreams" theme was dealt with much more expertly in the song bearing the name. In "Planets," it sounds like a developing idea, but one that hasn't been fleshed out completely. So I guess that shows that regardless of the time period, both of them wrote good and not-so-good lyrics.) By Tusk, I think they were getting on an equal level, as far as songwriting goes. By Tango, Lindsey's lyrics were taking a dump and Stevie's had reached the sewer (excuse the scatological metaphors... Digression: Interestingly the two rivers that border the city of Barcelona in the Middle Ages were called Merdança (**** stream) and the Cagallel (turd bearer). I'm not making this up.)

By Cradle, there was no doubt in my mind which of them was writing the interesting stuff.

But, hey, what do I know besides useless sewer-related trivia?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by dissention

And I'm surprised you didn't mention that it should be "fevered dance" and not "fever dance." It is, after all, another example of her bad grammar.

True, "fever dance" and "fevered dance" are two different things. In context, you are quite right that she should have said "fevered."