who else thinks Stevie is the best songwriter in the group?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
But I said "around here," because you're not the only one who does it, and I wasn't trying to single you out.

What exactly is the double standard?

I said this: "The verses have two chords and the melody is almost non-existent. The song really picks up energy on the chorus."

You countered the first half of my statement by throwing back at me something I said in another thread long ago: "There is beauty in simplicity." A statement, which by the way, does not say "all simple things are beautiful," unless you REALLY want to interpret it that way.

I don't remember calling "Say You Will" simple or even suggesting there was no beauty in it. In fact, I made a point to say the song picks up energy on the chorus. I have also said several times I like the song.

So what exactly do you find so offensive about that? Your defensiveness of all things Stevie gets a little tiring, frankly. You don't even know how do discern between disparaging remarks and what I did here -- balanced criticism.

I get it: You think Stevie is the cat's meow. Now, can we get off the defensiveness and discuss an issue based on the merits of the topic?

[Johnny Stew]

My initial response to you ("ah, but there's beauty in simplicity") was meant as a friendly nod to your previous statements, only because you seemed to be using the simplistic nature of "Say You Will's" structure and lyrics as an example that Stevie's current songwriting doesn't live up to what she's written in the past.

Using your statements about "Family Man" as an example, my intention was only to remind you that a song which is not necessarily overly complex in structure or even lyrically, is not a good example that the songwriter has lost their touch.

Stevie set out to write an upbeat, catchy song, in the vein of many of Christine's most popular tunes... and I think she did an excellent job of that, while putting her own unique stamp on it.

Am I saying it's in the league with the likes of "Rhiannon" and "Sara"? No, I'm not.
"Say You Will" is in a league all of its own, but I do think it's an excellent example of how much Stevie's talents have expanded over the years.
She can write an edgy, thought-provoking, stream of consciousness song like "Illume," on one end of the spectrum, and a fun, sing-songy tune like "Say You Will," on the other... while deftly covering all points in between.

If I "defend" Stevie, it's only because so many people seem to still want her to write the way she was writing back in 1976.
I think what she's writing here and now is far more interesting than what she wrote decades ago, because she has matured as a songwriter... just as you feel Lindsey's talents have advanced beyond even classics such as "Go Your Own Way," and "I'm So Afraid."

You're one of Lindsey's biggest cheerleaders... you love the music he has written throughout his career, and you take the time to point out what makes his songs so great... even when it's a song most others dislike, or are using as an example that he "doesn't write as well as Stevie."
So I don't see what's so different between you and I there.

I feel that Stevie should be allowed to write a song such as "Say You Will" without it being cited as an example of how she doesn't write like she used to, when Lindsey can be praised and exalted for writing a song such as "Family Man" (which, by the way, I happen to like considerably)... and that is where I have trouble seeing the "balanced criticism."

From where I'm sitting, the real criticism only seems to come into play when it involves one of Stevie's songs (and any real praise that's given is usually for the production and/or arrangement, and not really for her lyrics at all), and that gets a little tiring to me.

Funny thing is, I didn't even mean to get into the middle of this debate once again. The sole intention behind my initial response, was to give a friendly reminder that, just as it's unfair to use "Family Man" as an example that Lindsey doesn't write as well as Stevie, using the simplistic nature of "Say You Will" as an example that Stevie has lost her touch, is also unfair.

I guess my comments just didn't come off as light-heartedly as I originally intended, and unfortunately it dissolved from there.
I gotta learn to use more of these smilies.

At any rate... since we're both tired of this merry-go-round that we so often seem to find ourselves on, perhaps we should find a new topic for debate.

Wanna discuss who was more talented, Dave Walker or Bekka Bramlett?

[Johnny Stew]

I forgot to mention this in my post above, and felt I should add it... the reference to "Say You Will" as being "simplistic" was based on your comment, "the verses have two chords and the melody is almost non-existent."

I felt that that was what your comments boiled down to, so that's what my response was in regards to.

I just wanted to clear that up, because I know you mentioned that you never called the song "simple," and I didn't want to seem as if I were putting words into your mouth.
That the song was "simplistic," was my take on your "two chords/non-existent melody" statement.

[Craig]

well, I'm not one to beat around the bush(ok, I am ) but I really do feel that Stevie is a far more accomplished writer than Lindsey.

Say you will may be simple but as a songwriter myself, I know that someone that can do the pop song and the deeper songs, the more complicated songs..that's the real deal right there.

I really don't think any of fleetwood Mac are as good in the writing department as they once were. If not as good..then not as prolific, they obvious have been sitting on many of the SYW songs for years, they either are writing one song a year when it comes to them or writing a crap load of crap, I prefer to think the first where stevie is concerned.

I find some of Lindseys songs on SYW to be part two or part three to his past and while I appreciate the new things that were tried, I can't help but feel a lot of it is old hat.

the annoying thing about SYW is that it gives you the publishing date only, I'd love to know when these songs were copywrited, I know some must date back decades. Judging on when Everybody Finds out was done..Stevie is still on top of the mac writing game.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Craig
the annoying thing about SYW is that it gives you the publishing date only, I'd love to know when these songs were copywrited, I know some must date back decades. Judging on when Everybody Finds out was done..Stevie is still on top of the mac writing game.

Maybe I can help to clear that up a little.

To the best of my knowledge, Lindsey's songs were all written between 1994-2001 as he worked on 'Gift Of Screws.'

"Say Goodbye" was written during, or sometime shortly after, the 'Dance' tour in 1997, and "What's The World Coming To" is his most recent composition on the album, written around 2001.
Unfortunately I don't know anything more concrete in regards to when the other songs were written.

Stevie's "Goodbye Baby" was written around 1976, and "Smile At You," around 1978.
"Running Through The Garden" was first published in 1992, though educated guesses place it as having been written around 1985.

"Thrown Down" and "Not Make Believe" were written somewhere between 1997-2000.

And finally, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," "Silver Girl," and "Everybody Finds Out" are the most recent songs on the entire album, having been written in December 2001/January 2002.

Sorry for such broad dates on some of these, but those are the closest estimations.

[DownOnRodeo]

For the sake of pedantry (what are fans for after all? ) I'm pretty sure Say Goodbye was written around 1990 after he left TITN.

[Johnny Stew]

I was pretty sure he said in a recent interview that it was written about Stevie, around the time of 'The Dance.'

But with the bulk of articles and interviews floating around right now, I can't remember exactly where I read it.

You could be right though!

[BombaySapphire3]

I think there were periods when Lindsey was the stronger writer most obviously the early 90s OOTC is his best work. during this time due to the Klonopin, Stevie had hit her writing bottom.However after she got off the Klonopin I have to hand it back to Stevie as the best writer of the two.

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I was pretty sure he said in a recent interview that it was written about Stevie, around the time of 'The Dance.'

Hmm I'm pretty sure I read in that first big Lindsey interview from oneof the Guitar mags (GP?) that Say Goodbye was written about Stevie but way back after Tango. Can I be bothered to double check? Nup!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I forgot to mention this in my post above, and felt I should add it... the reference to "Say You Will" as being "simplistic" was based on your comment, "the verses have two chords and the melody is almost non-existent."

I felt that that was what your comments boiled down to, so that's what my response was in regards to.

Johnny, let's try something new in the future. Look at my statement on the whole. First I mention the song's undeniable catchiness, then I mention the two-chord monotonal quality of the verses. Then I said the chorus has energy. Not once did I say or imply it was a bad song. There's nothing wrong with simplicity when it is done right. At best my "two-chord" statement was intentionally ambiguous, not negative. Methinks that unless I come right out and gush with unbridled enthusiasm about anything Stevie, you're going to have a reason to get defensive. With all due respect, that's just silly.

Let's just move on.

[strandinthewind]

Regarding the date that Stevie actually writes the actual song and the publishing dates, I tend to look at the picture as a whole based on what Stevie says about her writing. She has said she goes back in her journals, which she has apparently kept since the early 1970's, and takes stories from there (which may already be in some sort of poetic form) and develops them into prose. She has also said sometimes she writes initially in prose. I think "Illume" is a good example of this as I think she has said she wrote that as a poem. So, when I hear songs like EFO, I look at it in this perspective - although recently written and published, it could be referring to one or more situations over a 30 + year period and part or all of that "new" writing could have been written in the early 1970's or throughout the last 30 years.

By the way, I think EFO is totally about Don Henley due to the reference to the midnight plane - She has said DOn sent her a cranberry Lear Jet one night after a concert so they could be together.

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Stevie's "Goodbye Baby" was written around 1976, and "Smile At You," around 1978.

I like your dates, Stew, but I'm going to stand by my strong hunch that "Smile at You" is older than most fans say it is. I think it's at least as old as "Goodbye Baby," & that the acetate of the old Fleetwood Mac studio work on it dates not from the "Tusk" years but from the "Rumours" years.

In other news, I think SN recently revealed that "Garden" was written in 1985, didn't she? In other words, based on the synthy-sounding '80s-ish old track we have, we all guessed about right!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Methinks that unless I come right out and gush with unbridled enthusiasm about anything Stevie, you're going to have a reason to get defensive. With all due respect, that's just silly.

Perhaps it seems that way, but that's really not true.

When I first became enamoured with Stevie's music in a major way, it was probably the most uncool thing going, to be a Stevie Nicks Fan (or a Fleetwood Mac Fan, for that matter).
I'm used to other people not liking her, and that really doesn't matter to me.
I hate to say it this way, but at the end of the day, my opinion is the only one that matters to me, where music is concerned... so criticism means nothing to me.

Unless, of course, I feel she's being held up to a different set of standards than another artist... then I bristle at the criticism.

But even at that, I wasn't all bent out of shape over your comments. Like I've said, my "beauty in simplicity" remark was really just a "wink and a nod" kinda reminder, as I noticed that you were using "Say You Will" as an example that she doesn't write as well as she used to.
Perhaps it was necessary, perhaps it wasn't... that's up for debate. Either way, it wasn't my intention to get into the middle of this debate once again, because it goes nowhere.

And yes, I couldn't agree more... it's time to move on.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by David
I like your dates, Stew, but I'm going to stand by my strong hunch that "Smile at You" is older than most fans say it is. I think it's at least as old as "Goodbye Baby," & that the acetate of the old Fleetwood Mac studio work on it dates not from the "Tusk" years but from the "Rumours" years.

You know, David, you could be right about "Smile At You."

The vitriolic nature of the lyrics could easily place it around 1976, during the 'Rumours' sessions. We know that the demo of "Planets Of The Universe" came from this time-frame, and there is a similarity to the overall mood of those two songs (before Stevie went back and wrote brand new verses for the version on 'TISL').

That would also seem to put "Smile At You" slightly before "Goodbye Baby" chronologically.

I wonder if we'll ever get these things cleared up.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Maybe I can help to clear that up a little.

To the best of my knowledge, Lindsey's songs were all written between 1994-2001 as he worked on 'Gift Of Screws.'

"Say Goodbye" was written during, or sometime shortly after, the 'Dance' tour in 1997, and "What's The World Coming To" is his most recent composition on the album, written around 2001.
Unfortunately I don't know anything more concrete in regards to when the other songs were written.

Stevie's "Goodbye Baby" was written around 1976, and "Smile At You," around 1978.
"Running Through The Garden" was first published in 1992, though educated guesses place it as having been written around 1985.

"Thrown Down" and "Not Make Believe" were written somewhere between 1997-2000.

And finally, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," "Silver Girl," and "Everybody Finds Out" are the most recent songs on the entire album, having been written in December 2001/January 2002.

Sorry for such broad dates on some of these, but those are the closest estimations.

thanks for the dates, I had wondered, I figured the tower was first done in 79 though but 76 sounds good too.