"THROWN DOWN" Not that great...

[Steve]

In response to chili D, is it...and Johnny Strew's apparent glee to his post, I am not surprised by the content of your lengthy response ............... I was anticipating such responses from both of you, and the others to follow this thread. I have logged onto the Ledge on and off over the past several years, and judging from what I have seen, you are both EXTREMELY (understated) diehard FM/SN fans. So given that, I will put your responses into perspective. Thank you, I appreciate your input to my post and the responses that followed.

[Phil]

Not being a fan of the TISL demo of Thrown Down, I was enormously impressed by the upcoming Mac version (which, by the way, I believe to be a finished mix - it is super smooth - just try listening to it through proper speakers as opposed to the tinny sheen of a computer). With each successive listening, my adoration of it becomes magnified. There is no doubt that Stevie sounds the best she has on a studio recording in quite some time; not that I didn't love Shangri-La, it's just I get the impression that with Lindsey at the helm, she goes that extra mile in terms of pushing herself vocally. Additionally, Lindsey's harmonies are spot on and for a moment there, the Buckingham Nicks era is conjured up, at least in my mind.

As cliched as this comment may seem, it has to be said that Lindsey's arranging skills are second to none ie nobody can arrange Stevie's songs as effectively as he can. I do concede that both John Shanks and Sheryl Crow performed admirable production duties on Shangri-La, but there is a unique chemistry between Stevie and Lindsey that I don't think either will ever share without the other. I realise how steeped in mythology and fairytale-esque that reads, but I have to believe in this!

I am actually fascinated by this mature phase of Stevie's and Lindsey's relationship, both the personal and the professional aspects. I adore the fact that they are now on an equal footing musically - from a fan's perspective they always were, but now Stevie is recognised as being just as talented by the critics and (more importantly) by Lindsey himself. I love that Lindsey was knocked out by the clutch of demos Stevie handed him for this album and believe he will be true to these in terms of honouring their original intent and integrity as well as realising their full potential.

I am confident that he is sincere in wanting to right the wrongs of the past with this new album. He has admitted in interviews since 1997 that he was not always interested in producing Stevie's songs to the best of his ability due to his past feelings of acrimony and bitterness towards her. However, now they are respectful of one another and perhaps in some ways, nostalgic for what they once had, musically and maybe to some degree as lovers.

Of course, Lindsey is happily married these days and a relationship is not exactly one of Stevie's priorities at the present time but there is a tangible bond between them that can not be denied. If we can sense it, I'm certain they can sure as hell feel it. Their relationship went beyond an intense affair - they were together romantically for many years but of more credence was their muscial partnership and this has continued to evolve over time, even when they were apart from one another. Something of that magnitude doesn't disappear forever but instead is strengthened over time and that my friends, is where things become interesting.

One final point I would like to make is that until we hear the finished album as whole, it will be impossible to judge the songs that we may have heard either as demos or properly recorded and mixed. A few years back, prior to all the technology we now have at our disposal, very few of us, maybe even none of us would have had access to the advance listening of Thrown Down.

For those who have been less than enamoured of what they have heard, try to imagine how it may sound within the context of the full album. Remember, this is a double set and my prediction is that a great many styles will be encompassed therein, facilitating a place for the likes of Thrown Down and its polar opposite, Come. If the magnificent Tusk album can be replicated in any form, let it be in spirit.

In terms of how this should all sound, as long as the band are true to themselves (and by default the songs) then I think we will all, to some degree, be satisfied with the final result. Experimentation doesn't necessarily equate to sampling the latest trends or techniques; for me it's all about inventiveness and exploration... I don't think Lindsey would be in disagreement with this.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by xhector
Lindsey respected TISL and this time has respected a lot more Stevie's songs: he didn't want to change the whole thing over & over 'till it sounded a perfect 10 to him. He has been also too long in the studio being too much perfectionist with GOS, and I don't think he has spent a large amount of hours and hours discussing with Stevie how her songs had to sound.
Hector

I think you just hit the nail right on the head. This is precisely what I said when I heard "Sweet Girl" off "The Dance." Though Mrs. Carne became enamored of the song, I just saw it as a silly little ditty that was included to appease Stevie. Listen to the demo and there isn't much difference. I suspect Lindsey has taken this same approach with "Thrown Down." That is to say that he produced it as best he could without fundamentally changing the song or discarding it altogether. Lyrically, as I have said before, this song is rather bland.

Now, Phil, as for your statement, "I am confident that he is sincere in wanting to right the wrongs of the past with this new album," I know you are referring to Lindsey's admittedly nearly giving in to his inner demon to not want to produce Stevie's songs. I believe he wrestled with that often, but I don't believe he actually acted on it. If so, would we have had "Gypsy," "Dreams," "Gold Dust Woman," "That's Alright," etc.? Perhaps the only time he actually gave in was during "Tango," but I happen to believe Stevie's contributions were just mediocre, plain and simple, and he couldn't do much more with them.

I would not say that taking a more hands-off approach to Stevie's songs would be "righting the wrongs of the past." If anything, he would be doing a disservice to Stevie, himself and to us all.

Chili made some good points, especially about the solo at the end. While Chili called it "normal," I saw it as rather generic. What pulls the song together for me is all the guitar tracks and the harmonies. I think Stevie's voice sounds OK and I like the tasteful use of the organ/synthesizer in the chorus. It's a decent song for a deep cut on an album, but it it gets released as a single, I wouldn't be surprised considering the "safe" approach the band took with "The Dance" and is likely to take with the new album.

[Johnny Stew]

I've gone on and on about how *I* feel about the song, so I thought I'd post something that happened to me this weekend.


A friend of mine and I finally got together on Saturday to exchange our Christmas gifts, and I decided to play "Thrown Down" for her.

She likes Fleetwood Mac, but she's not a big fan. On a fandom scale of 1 - 10, she's probably a 4.
(She's more of a fan of REM, POD, Nine Inch Nails, and... oddly enough... Indigo Girls.)
So I was really interested in HER opinion.

I played the song, and she sat there pretty stone-faced thru the whole thing.
I thought, "Aw, crap... she hates it."

When the song finished, she turned to me and said, "Play it again."
I was surprised because she didn't seem to be into it at all, but I played it again for her (like she really had to twist my arm!).

Well, she ended up asking me to put it on repeat, and I think it played a total of 8 times before *I* actually decided to turn it off, before we got burnt out on it.
She ended up TOTALLY getting into it, and asked me to burn it on CD for her.

In the meantime, she grilled me about everything I know in regards to the upcoming album... and she was really disappointed that I didn't know a release date yet (she even told me that since she has so many vacation days coming to her this year, she'll take a half day off of work, so we could go get the CD on release day).
All of that, based on how much she liked this one song.

So... hopefully her reaction bodes well for "Thrown Down," if it does happen to be released as a single.



Johnny Stew

[Johnny Stew]

There's another theory... other than the one that "Sweet Girl" and "Thrown Down" were recorded only to appease Stevie.

And that theory is... that Lindsey actually likes the songs!!!

I know, I know... it's absolutely impossible to believe, but stranger things have happened!



Johnny Stew (who's feeling silly today)

[chiliD]

I can see that about "Sweet Girl"...since, from everything I've read, it was the only "new" song Stevie brought to The Dance. So they kind of had to do it by default. (and, they had just prior to that worked on "Twisted" together) But, from reading about Lindsey actually liking "TISL" (and why shouldn't he, it seems like John Shanks & Sheryl Crow were TRYING to get that "Buckingham sound") and having 17 demos of Stevie's to work with, I think he was really excited to actually WORK on Stevie's tunes with a renewed appreciation, instead of the trepidation he seemed to have during "Mirage" & "Tango".

[Sorcerer386]

And that theory is... that Lindsey actually likes the songs!!!

Now Johnny Stew...let's be serious here. Lindsey could never possibly like anything Stevie does...I mean, she can't write songs, she can't write lyrics, and she's basically a total useless entity in creation of anything musical. All those albums she did solo must have been such a fluke at going gold and platinum. Come on now...

DISCLAIMER: Sorry for the sarcasm and cynicism, but I've grown increasingly tired of this whole subject. Why don't we just leave it that all these people hate Thrown Down?

[FiercestCalmSea]

Why don't we just leave it that all these people hate Thrown Down?

Amen to that

[CarneVaca]

Johnny Stew, it is quite possible that Lindsey likes the songs. Anything is possible.

Here's some food for thought: Quite often some folks here have made the point that Stevie has sold far more records as a solo artist than Lindsey, that hers have gone gold and platinum and "Out of the Cradle" barely sold. The implication being that there's a correlation between big sales and big talent.

That may be so in some cases, but how do you explain Milli Vanilli and the Spice Girls? Or all those boy bands and the talentless coming-of-age pop princesses?

[Barbara]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny Stew, it is quite possible that Lindsey likes the songs. Anything is possible.

Here's some food for thought: Quite often some folks here have made the point that Stevie has sold far more records as a solo artist than Lindsey, that hers have gone gold and platinum and "Out of the Cradle" barely sold. The implication being that there's a correlation between big sales and big talent.

That may be so in some cases, but how do you explain Milli Vanilli and the Spice Girls? Or all those boy bands and the talentless coming-of-age pop princesses?

Excellent points, CV! Stevie made 8 solo albums between '81 and '01, LB made 3 between '81 and '92. Also, he has never generated much name recognition.

Barbara

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Here's some food for thought: Quite often some folks here have made the point that Stevie has sold far more records as a solo artist than Lindsey, that hers have gone gold and platinum and "Out of the Cradle" barely sold. The implication being that there's a correlation between big sales and big talent.

That may be so in some cases, but how do you explain Milli Vanilli and the Spice Girls? Or all those boy bands and the talentless coming-of-age pop princesses?

Originally posted by Barbara
Excellent points, CV! Stevie made 8 solo albums between '81 and '01, LB made 3 between '81 and '92. Also, he has never generated much name recognition.

I wholeheartedly agree with anyone who says that sales and Billboard chart placements are not necessarily an indication of talent or quality of music.
I think we can all agree on that point.

However, when it comes to established artists, I think it's pretty unlikely that high sales, or high chart placements, are a fluke.
Sure, every now and then you get an album like Cher's 'Believe,' or Santana's 'Supernatural,' which... while they may be established artists... sold so astronomically that one is left to believe that *some* of those sales were based on the hype surrounding the album, or their hipness quotient.

Stevie's 'Street Angel' peaked at #45 on the Billboard charts, and eventually went Gold.
Granted, it didn't sell nearly as well as her previous albums, but in 1994, within her peer group, it was not that big of an embarrassment.

In a case like this... an established artist, who wasn't exactly "hip" at that point in time... I *do* believe it has a lot to do with talent, as well as audience affection.

And hell, one could argue that, with the exception maybe of the last few years, it was NEVER a hip thing to like Stevie Nicks' music... and yet those albums sold extremely well despite that.

Stevie has worked hard... damn near killed herself, in fact... to build up a large and very loyal fan base.
If she has a creative misstep along the way, it's ok, because they know that she'll redeem herself the next time around.

It's a damn shame that 'Out Of The Cradle' didn't reach a larger audience. Lindsey was at the top of his game on that album, and I think he had finally found an excellent marriage between the experimental and the relatable.
Not only was it a joyride for your ears, it was also music you could *connect* with... and music that you could come back to a few years later, and still enjoy.

In his Behind The Music, Lindsey said that he has "always" liked Stevie's lyrics, but he... as we all know so well... admitted that he didn't always want to work on making them even better.

So now that they've removed the drama, bitterness, and resentment, that seemed to often cloud the working environment, it doesn't at all surprise me that Lindsey could... and DOES... like the songs Stevie contributed, and that he would want to take the time to polish them into something dynamic.
And not just to appease her, or to sell more albums using her name value.



Johnny Stew

[CarneVaca]

Lindsey is back in Fleetwood Mac and sacrificed his solo album for sales. Let's have no delusions about that. Regardless of whether it was his decision or the label's to go this route, the bottom line is sales. I have no doubt he would rather be in his own home studio working on his own songs. It's entirely possible that he is enjoying working with Stevie, and I would expect so. But let's not forget that she was the only Fleetwood Mac member who wasn't invited to help record GOS songs. So that tells you something.

[Vianna]

I certainly have no idea really why Lindsey didn't ask her, but just
maybe he thought she wouldn't want to?

[The Tower]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey is back in Fleetwood Mac and sacrificed his solo album for sales. Let's have no delusions about that. Regardless of whether it was his decision or the label's to go this route, the bottom line is sales. I have no doubt he would rather be in his own home studio working on his own songs. It's entirely possible that he is enjoying working with Stevie, and I would expect so. But let's not forget that she was the only Fleetwood Mac member who wasn't invited to help record GOS songs. So that tells you something.

Well.... from personal experience I know that one may want to work in a band atmosphere for exactly that- the atmosphere. One cannot just assume that Lindsey is doing it for sales. I'm guessing he's not so strapped for cash that he's doing this new album for the money.

That "band creative magic" (the kind that gives me goosebumps when I play) is something that exists and cannot be replicated on a solo venture.

Stevie's absence from the GOS songs doesn't really tell me anything one way or another. She doesn't record instrumentation, occasional tambourine and keyboards. Maybe she was just busy with HER career and Lindsey was cool with it.

[tommer]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
But let's not forget that she was the only Fleetwood Mac member who wasn't invited to help record GOS songs. So that tells you something.

do you consider this some kind of a seal of approval? let's keep in mind that we are talking about a speculative album, which was declined by lindsey's record company after their 25 year relations (does THAT tell you something?).
i must say that i find stevie's ongoing ambition to be respected by lindsey as a musician to be somewhat pathetic.
it's plain to see that lindsey is more of a musician and stevie is more of an artist, and while she always needed a strong producer at her side, he always needed her to gather a crowd of more than 5 people.