Amnesty: Do You Support It Or Deprecate It?

[sparky]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

I received today:

Dude, I must have a toaster oven around here I can send you.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by JazmenFlowers

I don't think this is entirely true and certainly don't appreciate the assumption that it insinuates.

Right, this is what I meant about my snarkiness. It was an unnecessary comment on my part. I'd like to blame the pre-posting cosmos, but I'll take responsibility.

and I don't think it's accurate to compare this to the fight for equality...by a long shot.

I wasn't trying to make an equal comparison. I was trying to describe what I see as horrible flaws in our immigration policies and how I think amnesty can address some of them, even if temporarily.

The HIV example I used (which is all too real) was trying to say that on one hand people think undocumented come here to take advantage of our social/medical benefits, but the reality is that many don't even try to access healthcare or benefits because they are afraid of being "caught" and deported. Fact is, even a "legal" immigrant can't get Medicaid until 5 years after coming here.

I just don't think "illegals" (I hate that word) can or should be lumped together as freeloaders or causing all the problems in this country. And I think they have become this year's scapegoat. Not by people on this board, necessarily, but by politicians.

It's not like the immigration problem is any worse this year than the past few years, but suddenly it has become this urgent problem that must be addressed in a sweeping reform bill. I didn't see a lot of major concern with the issue in the late 90's when the economy was doing well. If amnesty in the 80's was such a horrible mistake, then why wasn't there such noise being made about it several years ago?

I deal with a lot of undocumented people in my work and simply from living in San Francisco. Mainly Chinese and Mexican. I admire them; they take care of their families, work hard, and add to the culture and flavor of the city. They never would be able to immigrate here legally under current rules and law. If I thought this Congress would come up with fair immigration reform that would allow for significant numbers of people to come legally from these countries, then I might think differently about amnesty. That'll never happen, though, so I think acknowleding that these folks are here and integrating them into our society is the best way to go.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by sparky

Dude, I must have a toaster oven around here I can send you.

whatever ya mean by that...I have a workin' oven so no, But thanks for asking!

Btw, Now that I think about it I have dual citizenship-US Citizen & the Cherokee Nation...One works & the other is broken beyond abso-tive repair, Wanna guess which is which?

[sparky]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

whatever ya mean by that...I have a workin' oven so no, But thanks for asking!

Just an offer of a prize and an indication of the pleasure the post gave me.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by sparky

Just an offer of a prize and an indication of the pleasure the post gave me.

that is what I figured ya meant.

[BTFLCHLD]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Right, this is what I meant about my snarkiness. It was an unnecessary comment on my part. I'd like to blame the pre-posting cosmos, but I'll take responsibility.

Off topic...but this is really cool for you to take responsbility for your posts...I like that a lot. Mucho respect for you!

Mucho?! I never say that!

[sparky]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

that is what I figured ya meant.

Not to threadjack, but BTW I was in OKC last fri-tues for a big gay rodeo. I am sure people were scandalized.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

I received today:

"Cheap Labor"

"Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business don't want to pay a decent wage, consumers don't want expensive produce, Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor.

"The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie.
There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal Mexican who sneaks in here with his
wife and five children. He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour.

At that wage with six dependents he pays no income tax, yet at the
end of the year if he files income tax he gets an earned income
credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent, He qualifies for food stamps. He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care. His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school. He requires bilingual teachers and books. He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for
SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this
is at that taxpayers expense.

He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or
homeowners insurance. Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued. He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after
paying their bills and his. They also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash cleanup.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

This is filled with misinformation. You don't qualify for Medicare if you qualify for SSI. It's Medicaid. Even then, undocumented don't qualify for Medicaid or Medicare. If basic facts are incorrect, how could this be taken seriously?

And an illegal can't be harassed or fired?

Since the facts are wrong, the piece needs to resort to stereotypes and fear-mongering (i.e., crime, graffiti).

For balance, and not from a liberal organization:

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/d...20060501.shtml

Commentary

Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
May 1, 2006

Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
Eight million illegals pay Social Security, Medicare, and income taxes
By Shikha Dalmia


Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America's bedrock belief in fairness. But many "pull-up-the-drawbridge" politicians want to do just that when it comes to illegal immigrants.

The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.

Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers. Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets.

The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid. But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid "theft of these benefits by illegal aliens," as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it.

But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.

What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.

Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed. To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program. Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn't be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs.

The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don't want here in the first place. With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.

Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation, a free-market think tank.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by sparky

Not to threadjack, but BTW I was in OKC last fri-tues for a big gay rodeo. I am sure people were scandalized.

didnt hear a thing about it actually...But I did notice, as did Deb, that a well known motel along I-44 that caters to gays/lesbian travelers had a welcome sign for a rodeo.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Illegals are not milking the government

the elected politicians are the milkers, they just try to throw blame elsewhere so it doesnt appear too obvious to the dumb American voter

[irishgrl]

It's not like the immigration problem is any worse this year than the past few years,

actually Ryan, the numbers show that there has been a recent spike in immigration numbers (for a number of reasons, but I will have to address this when I get home) California in particular takes the biggest hit. There's proof of that too...of the 7 majorly impacted states, California is by FAR the most burdened by this issue.....I can post charts, numbers etc, but Im about to leave work, so If you're interested, I'll post when I get home

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

actually Ryan, the numbers show that there has been a recent spike in immigration numbers (for a number of reasons, but I will have to address this when I get home) California in particular takes the biggest hit. There's proof of that too...of the 7 majorly impacted states, California is by FAR the most burdened by this issue.....I can post charts, numbers etc, but Im about to leave work, so If you're interested, I'll post when I get home

Yes, let me know, thanks.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

I received today:

"
Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after
paying their bills and his. They also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash cleanup.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

Okay - that article was fine until the end - when it crossed the line. I don't know about where you all live - but around here ALL of the trash, graffiti and crime is comitted by 100% American-Born people.

This is what I hate about this argument - there seems to be this underlying racial thing, and as a Mexican I take a lot of offense to it. Should people break the law and then be rewarded for it? No. But they are people. bottom line. Human beings.

And Americans...poor Americans and others put just as much of a strain on the system as illegal immigrants.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

the elected politicians are the milkers, they just try to throw blame elsewhere so it doesnt appear too obvious to the dumb American voter

Yes, the electeds are great at throwing blame around. And there's a lot of milkers out there, from fat-cat corporations that get loads of government contracts, to tax evaders, to your run of the mill welfare-cheat.

It just frustrates me that the nation basically just rolls its eyes at the powerful people and companies that rip off the country, but get so worked up over poor people that come here to make a better life for their families.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Yes, let me know, thanks.

ok, I hope this works, its a link to a pdf file that gives numbers for LEGAL immigration stats (so you can imagine what the ILLEGAL numbers would be!)
anyway, take a look at this, its from the office of Immigration Statistics:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/sta...t1980-2004.pdf