France Rejects EU Constitution - Page 3

seeker007nmss · #31 06-03-2005, 02:25 AM

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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

The role of the US in WWII is well-documented, but the role of the USSR is just never acknowledged, is it? More dead than the US, UK, France and Germany put together, for a start. The majority (something like 70%) of the German forces were tasked throughout the war with fighting the eastern front against the Russians, and every time an army of Russians was defeated another load came over the hill and started shooting. The Germans were worn down by the sheer numbers of opponents, and the Russian winters - Germans who would otherwise have been crossing the English Channel and taking over, and kicking the Americans out of Europe. The Russians saved our skins, no doubt about it. 27 million of them died doing it.

Then again, lets not forget the agreement Russia and Germany made over the division of Poland and other reastern Block countries, which Hitler made with the Russians before he invaded them. (Which Hitler broke and kept going). I wonder if the Russians would have tried to "save" the UK if Hitler hadn't gone east? I doubt it. And as far as dead. We hear about Hitler's atrocites all the time, yet very little is said about Stalin's little ethnic cleansings. (And the Japanese atrocities are a whole other subject) Just a thought. NO SIDE is ever a saint, the winners just get to write the historical version of what happened.

Mari · #32 06-03-2005, 03:26 AM

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Originally Posted by shackin'up

me too, dear. this one was my only chance ever to win, but I chose for the underdog opinion....again....it's the story of my life.

Woof. I know what you mean!

strandinthewind · #33 06-03-2005, 10:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Lux

. . . I'll be sure to have them thankyou Jason.

You have that power all the way down under?

bretonbanquet · #34 06-03-2005, 12:38 PM

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Then again, lets not forget the agreement Russia and Germany made over the division of Poland and other reastern Block countries, which Hitler made with the Russians before he invaded them. (Which Hitler broke and kept going). I wonder if the Russians would have tried to "save" the UK if Hitler hadn't gone east? I doubt it. And as far as dead. We hear about Hitler's atrocites all the time, yet very little is said about Stalin's little ethnic cleansings. (And the Japanese atrocities are a whole other subject) Just a thought. NO SIDE is ever a saint, the winners just get to write the historical version of what happened.

Yes - don't get me wrong, I know the Russians weren't fighting out of any kindness to us or anyone else - they were fighting for their own reasons. They helped us out a great deal, sure it was inadvertent, but it's still true.

Strand - no-one's denying that the US made an enormous contribution to the war, but sometimes people seem to make out that the US were fighting alone... and the war had more implications for the States than you think. If Europe had been overrun and the Russians subdued, Germany could in theory have then helped the Japanese fight the US. The US would have stood alone against Nazism and Japanese aggression - they sure didn't want that. The US were not solely acting for the benefit of mankind.

strandinthewind · #35 06-03-2005, 02:17 PM

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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

. . . Germany could in theory have then helped the Japanese fight the US . . . .

Japan was part of the Axis of Power and was already aligned with Germany and Italy

So, they were helong Japan in that sense, though in the end I have no doubt Hitler would have stabbed Japan and Italy in the back because those two nations hardly fit into the Aryan profile.

But, I agree, the US did not enter the war until it had to. But, that is not the point I was making. The point I was making is the facts indicate the remainder of free Europe, save perhaps Russia and to a lesser extent GB, was losing badly until the US came into the war. Thus, I think it is accurate to say the entrance of the US into the European theatre of WWII is what turned whast appeared to be a certain defeat for the free European nations into a long road to the now historical win - for which we are all blessed

Interestingly, people talk of the horrors under Hitler, which were indeed bad, but what the Japanese dod to the Chinese and had been doing for a long time prior to then, was IMO somewhat worse, though both Hitler and the Japanese had shops of horror - sad, very true.

On edit - here is a fairly cool site with a WWII timeline

Also, I LOVE to talk about WWII and WWI - I think it is fascinating, though I know the horrors were significant.

Hippocampus · #36 06-03-2005, 03:19 PM

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Shall I add more fuel to the fire? If France had agreed with the Brits and Americans about the reduction and/or elimantion of War repreations after WW1 for the Germans, the economic downfall following the war may not have been as great. Add to this the occupation of the Rhine, Navel blockaids, hyper inflation.....etc. Had the French not been so "Frenchy" (And I won't get into the rest of the Treaty of Versailles (sp)) There is chance Hitler may not have been able to use that current climate to come to power. So I blame the French for setting the stage for WW2.

Geeze... Perhaps you should take into account that France was a battleground during WWI. The country was left bloodless and dry and devastated. The US and the UK suffered far less casualties and no loss of infrastructure. Not one shot was fired on their respective territories. Can you blame a ruined country for harping to obtain maximum concessions after the war? Was it excessive? Probably but please put the events into context.

The Versailles Treaty was but one factor among many in the rise of Hitler. The consequences of the 1929 depression was the MAJOR one.

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Yes, I will admit their contribution to the US in the early part of our history, but their track record since then is just deplorable. (As far as backing it's allies) .

Iraqi sour grapes?

Funny how expressing a differing opinion is interpreted as a betrayal. Allies are not vassals.

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

I have no use for the french except for the Staue of Liberty, Jacques Coustou and crepes.

Your xenophobia is duly noted.

strandinthewind · #37 06-03-2005, 03:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Hippocampus

. . . Your xenophobia is duly noted.

Actually, I think it is more "The French are historically smug and hippocritical and I am gonna learn from that" than fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

In other words, the French make it easy to hate them, though I do not.

seeker007nmss · #38 06-03-2005, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Hippocampus

The Versailles Treaty was but one factor among many in the rise of Hitler. The consequences of the 1929 depression was the MAJOR one.

And WHAT caused the depression to be more severe in Germany? Could it be ....The large war repreations?

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Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Your xenophobia is duly noted.

Was suppose to be taken lightly. Obviously you can't condem a whole nation by steriotypes. Although Mimes are hard to like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Iraqi sour grapes?
Funny how expressing a differing opinion is interpreted as a betrayal. Allies are not vassals.

I am referring to not allowing the use of their airspace with Lybia, the outlawing of certain English terms...etc. They have a long track record of being a pain in the butt at times. And I wonder how long these "Vassals" would have survived without other Allied support in the past and now. Nice of us to pay for the protection of Europe during the cold war with our defenses. And one last thing:

I still don't like Mimes.

seeker007nmss · #39 06-03-2005, 04:15 PM

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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

The US were not solely acting for the benefit of mankind.

There may have been a few, maybe 8. Okay how about 23. 23 acted soley for the benefit of mankind. And no other reason.

Hippocampus · #40 06-03-2005, 04:54 PM

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

And WHAT caused the depression to be more severe in Germany? Could it be ....The large war repreations?

Actually no

Germany had been rebuilt mostly with US funds and was completely and totally dependent on that incoming cash flow. And when the Wall Street crisis rocked the world in 1929, the US investors panicked and withdrew their funds & savings. Germany suffered the most during the depression for these reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Was suppose to be taken lightly. Obviously you can't condem a whole nation by steriotypes. Although Mimes are hard to like.

Fight the stereotypes. I'm quite often provoked for having lived in the USA and I never tire of telling these ruffians that not all Americans are fat ignorant bible-thumping TV addicted gun-wielding arrogant weirdos who can only place two countries on a world map besides the USA: Canada and Mexico.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

I am referring to not allowing the use of their airspace with Lybia, the outlawing of certain English terms...etc. They have a long track record of being a pain in the butt at times. And I wonder how long these "Vassals" would have survived without other Allied support in the past and now. Nice of us to pay for the protection of Europe during the cold war with our defenses.

Once again, no one's disputing the fact that Europe owes its freedom to the US. It's just that it marvels me that it should translate into obedience and compliance with any US whims.

As for the "outlawing of certain English terms", the whole affair was laughed upon and the minister who suggested it is/was a joke. Talk about blowing nothing out of proportion

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

I still don't like Mimes.

Don't worry, no one does.

seeker007nmss · #41 06-03-2005, 06:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Actually no

Fight the stereotypes. I'm quite often provoked for having lived in the USA and I never tire of telling these ruffians that not all Americans are fat ignorant bible-thumping TV addicted gun-wielding arrogant weirdos who can only place two countries on a world map besides the USA: Canada and Mexico.

Actually, that is fairly acurrate of a large portion of the country.

But I have take issue with the two countries comment - usually it is just one "Our Fine neighbors to the north - Mexico"

strandinthewind · #42 06-03-2005, 06:08 PM

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Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Actually, that is fairly acurrate of a large portion of the country.

get off the crack - I never see any of that in Georgia

seeker007nmss · #43 06-03-2005, 06:10 PM

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Originally Posted by strandinthewind

get off the crack - I never see any of that in Georgia

well, I didn't mean Georgia of course -

SuzeQuze · #44 06-03-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Fight the stereotypes. I'm quite often provoked for having lived in the USA and I never tire of telling these ruffians that not all Americans are fat ignorant bible-thumping TV addicted gun-wielding arrogant weirdos who can only place two countries on a world map besides the USA: Canada and Mexico.

That stereotype has to be fought! Scary to think we are generalized as that. I'm going to begin the "Some Americans Are Wicked Smaht" world tour to let people know we are not all couch potato illiterates.

shackin'up · #45 06-03-2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

That stereotype has to be fought! Scary to think we are generalized as that. I'm going to begin the "Some Americans Are Wicked Smaht" world tour to let people know we are not all couch potato illiterates.

Sorry. That stereotype can't be fought as long as you're majority votes for stereotype christian reactionairs like your own worldleader. Only couch potato illiterates can be so brilliant.