Kerry, a.k.a. Bush, supports faith-based initiatives

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I see that, as I expected, Carne white-washed, excused, and basically overlooked Nader's hypocritical ways. He found a very tenuous excuse for Nader's behavior, and then once again returned to holding Kerry and the Democratic party responsible for everything and anything he can think of.

Bull****.

I still stand by my opinion that you cannot be a consumer's advocate, demonizing companies for their actions, and then turn around and make money off of them.

Is that more incongruous than your support of an anti-gay marriage candidate? Or an anti-war candidate? Or a faith-based initiative-supporting candidate?

Explain to me why and how.

Nader knows which companies he makes his money off of, and it's his choice not to. But he accepts that money, and has built a 3.8+ million dollar bank-account from it.

Why would you begrudge the man a few million after all the work he's done for you and me? Should he send us all checks? Would that make you happy?

He is absolutely no better than anyone else... and possibly worse, because he claims to be above all of that.

Better than some, yes. Worse? Not even close.

I readily admit that Kerry is flawed, and isn't the "perfect candidate"... but I see Carne isn't willing to budge one single bit on Nader.

You haven't been paying attention. I've already stated many moons ago I'm not sure if I'll even vote for him. The gratuitious attacks on him on this thread are what I'm reacting to. Was it you who brought him up? And I pointed out he's done more for you, like it or not, than Kerry has or will. Isn't it silly you have to try to discredit him to try to make your candidate look better?

I think our friend has more trouble admitting he's wr-wr-wrong, than The Fonz.

Very funny, but inaccurate as usual.

[The Tower]

I've been lurking and reading, but not posting.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Why would you begrudge the man a few million after all the work he's done for you and me? Should he send us all checks? Would that make you happy?

Cop-out!!

I think Ralph Nader is pretty cool. However, one has to admit that he can't have things both ways. Either be the consumer advocate Superman with a clean record, or own up to the fact that you've invested in (and therefore potentially propagated) the same companies that you abhor.

Kerry's got my vote because I know he will beat Dubya. He's not perfect, but neither am I. I trust Kerry to be at minimum a good caretaker President (I've never considered that term pejorative). I know the things I truly care about (social tolerance, the environment, education) will vastly improve from Dubya's failures under his administration. The other stuff can be ironed out over time....

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Is that more incongruous than your support of an anti-gay marriage candidate? Or an anti-war candidate? Or a faith-based initiative-supporting candidate?

Explain to me why and how.

I'm just going to use your tactic from here on out:
We're not talking about me here, so I don't have to explain anything.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Why would you begrudge the man a few million after all the work he's done for you and me? Should he send us all checks? Would that make you happy?

I begrudge anyone who makes money off of companies that they publically decry as being "evil."
And yes, I'd be thrilled if he shared that money with others... starting with the people who have been wronged by those companies he's making his money from.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

And I pointed out he's done more for you, like it or not, than Kerry has or will. Isn't it silly you have to try to discredit him to try to make your candidate look better?

I have no desire to make John Kerry look better. The only person he needs to look better than, is George W., and he can do that without even trying.
I was merely pointing out that, while you demonize Kerry for any hypocrisy, perceived or real, you still tout Nader as some bastion of all that should be respected.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Very funny, but inaccurate as usual.

Nah, I think that was one of my more astute observations.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Kerry's... not perfect, but neither am I. I trust Kerry to be at minimum a good caretaker President (I've never considered that term pejorative). I know the things I truly care about (social tolerance, the environment, education) will vastly improve from Dubya's failures under his administration. The other stuff can be ironed out over time....

And that, in a nutshell, is pretty much how I feel about it, too.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I begrudge anyone who makes money off of companies that they publically decry as being "evil."

Amen, Brother Stew.

How anyone can argue over that statement is beyond me.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Cop-out!!

I think Ralph Nader is pretty cool. However, one has to admit that he can't have things both ways. Either be the consumer advocate Superman with a clean record, or own up to the fact that you've invested in (and therefore potentially propagated) the same companies that you abhor.

Are you serious!? The man is not allowed to invest in the stock market because he's a consumer advocate!? Surely you can't possibly believe that. I am puzzled that anyone living in this country, benefitting from things like mutual funds, 401ks, IRAs, stock options, etc., would have the temerity to suggest that.

Even I, an unabashed critic of capitalism, would have to be remiss not to acknowledge that mutual funds, stock options and 401ks have benefitted me. Let's get real here.

I know the things I truly care about (social tolerance, the environment, education) will vastly improve from Dubya's failures under his administration. The other stuff can be ironed out over time....

Don't bet on it. He's already made all kinds of concessions, including to the big corporations. Don't think the environment will be saved by this man.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Are you serious!? The man is not allowed to invest in the stock market because he's a consumer advocate!? Surely you can't possibly believe that. I am puzzled that anyone living in this country, benefitting from things like mutual funds, 401ks, IRAs, stock options, etc., would have the temerity to suggest that.

Even I, an unabashed critic of capitalism, would have to be remiss not to acknowledge that mutual funds, stock options and 401ks have benefitted me. Let's get real here.

That's not what's at issue here, and you know it.
The issue is that Nader VERY publicly decries these companies and their actions, and THEN turns around and makes money from them.

The last I looked, neither you nor anyone else here on this board, had gone on national TV to criticize any of these companies. Nader has made a career out of doing that, and then made a fortune off of those very same companies.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm just going to use your tactic from here on out:
We're not talking about me here, so I don't have to explain anything.

Whatever, dude. I guess some questions are just too uncomfortable for you to answer.

I begrudge anyone who makes money off of companies that they publically decry as being "evil."

But you don't begrudge a guy who votes for a war, then says he is against it, then says he would have voted for it anyway after it becomes clear it was fought under false pretenses, and that he would have done the same thing the sitting president did?

Yeah, that makes sense.

while you demonize Kerry for any hypocrisy, perceived or real, you still tout Nader as some bastion of all that should be respected.

I haven't done either. You brought up Nader, attacked his character, and I merely pointed out he's done far more for you than Kerry has or will.

Nah, I think that was one of my more astute observations.

Nah... I think your best one was when you said we should elect Kerry because he hasn't had a chance to do the job yet. You know, I went to the Disney board of directors last week. I said, "Hey, Michael Eisner is doing a crappy job lately. Why don't you let me take a crack at running the company? Huh? Give me a chance? I haven't done the job yet, so it's the least you can do." They didn't buy it. I can't figure out why.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

That's not what's at issue here, and you know it.
The issue is that Nader VERY publicly decries these companies and their actions, and THEN turns around and makes money from them.

Who doesn't, Johnny? Have you looked at your 401K? It's nearly impossible not to if you want to have some money for your retirement. Stop begrudging the man his nest egg. It's sillly and unamerican to do that.

The last I looked, neither you nor anyone else here on this board, had gone on national TV to criticize any of these companies.

Every chance I get. If they let me on national TV, I'd be glad to do it.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by dissention

Amen, Brother Stew.

How anyone can argue over that statement is beyond me.

Just did. So:

Na na na na naaa na!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Just did. So:

Na na na na naaa na!

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I get what Johnny is saying. We all may make money off of the big corporations via our 401k's and mutual funds, but none of us have made a career out of fighting the corporations and lashing out at them as being "evil." In the end, he's paid for his consumer advocate work that is principally founded on his disdain for those corporations, then he turns around and makes even more of a profit off of those corporations by buying their stock. He's denouncing the SUVs, but putting gas in them at the same time.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by dissention

[IMG]In the end, he's paid for his consumer advocate work that is principally founded on his disdain for those corporations, then he turns around and makes even more of a profit off of those corporations by buying their stock.

Don't you see? It's the ultimate irony. Savor it. It's delicious.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

But you don't begrudge a guy who votes for a war, then says he is against it, then says he would have voted for it anyway after it becomes clear it was fought under false pretenses, and that he would have done the same thing the sitting president did?

I'll just use your answer: "Don't you see? It's the ultimate irony. Savor it. It's delicious."

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I haven't done either. You brought up Nader, attacked his character, and I merely pointed out he's done far more for you than Kerry has or will.

The only reason I brought up Nader in the first place, was as an example to you that ALL politicians can be accused of hypocritical behaviour. Not just Mr. Kerry.
Mr. Nader is most certainly not exempt... even though you'd sure like to make it sound like he is.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Nah... I think your best one was when you said we should elect Kerry because he hasn't had a chance to do the job yet. You know, I went to the Disney board of directors last week. I said, "Hey, Michael Eisner is doing a crappy job lately. Why don't you let me take a crack at running the company? Huh? Give me a chance? I haven't done the job yet, so it's the least you can do." They didn't buy it. I can't figure out why.

This surely isn't a "no-spin zone." I explained what I meant by my statement, and you still continue to twist my comment. I said that: You can't know positively that John Kerry will do as bad of a job as George W. Bush... which you have stated he would... without him having even held the office.
If you say you don't have confidence in him, fine. That's understandable.
But to say he would be "as bad as" someone else, is an assumption.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Who doesn't, Johnny? Have you looked at your 401K? It's nearly impossible not to if you want to have some money for your retirement. Stop begrudging the man his nest egg. It's sillly and unamerican to do that.

Well, here you go... I only work part-time at a public library, and I don't have a 401K plan.
So I'm not making a cent off of any "evil corporation."

(By the way, in what tax-bracket is 3.8 MILLION dollars considered a "nest egg"?)

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Well, here you go... I only work part-time at a public library, and I don't have a 401K plan.
So I'm not making a cent off of any "evil corporation."

(By the way, in what tax-bracket is 3.8 MILLION dollars considered a "nest egg"?)

Actually cotributions to a 401k are pre tax deductions.