Could SAY YOU WILL be IT????

[Sorcerer386]

You can justify Stevie's lack of inspiration however you want and enumerate examples ad nauseum to prove your point, but that won't change the fact that she simply cannot write the way she once did. I think other objective-minded folks have made similar comments on these boards.

Objective minded? I'm sorry CarneVaca, but you are OBVIOUSLY so subjective to Lindsey's music just as a lot of us are to Stevie's music. And don't sneer back with "Did I say I was being objective?" because that's what you meant. Anything against Stevie is simply an objective standpoint for you, yet one foul word against Lindsey and it's the pits for any Stevie fan. YOU THINK Stevie can't write the way she used to, I THINK you are wrong. There is clearly no objectivity around the case at all, and many people argue if there even is such a thing as total objectivity. Aren't you a journalist of some kind? You should know that. So Stevie writes with the same three chords, WELL, did you like the OTHER songs she wrote with those same three chords?

As for not allowing people to like her music, any decent comment about a Stevie song is 9 times out of 10 rebuffed by a smug comment -- either she can't write anymore or she's just some stupid blonde girl who can't do anything brilliant. And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth (except maybe about the "stupid blonde girl" part), these are things you've said right here in this thread. I'd love to be able to remember the many other remarks you've made about Stevie.

As for everything else going on around here, you people need to take a careful look at yourselves. If you guys are Fleetwood Mac's biggest and best fans, then I don't know why I would EVER want to pursue a singing career. All that's around this place is comments about how Fleetwood Mac are money grubbing assholes, or how they don't give a damn about their fans, or that they are so inefficient releasing new albums. I think I've skipped probably 5 threads today just because I knew they'd be talking about what a bunch of ignoramouses Fleetwood Mac is. It's not even pleasant to come here anymore. Someone posted in chit chat about there being too much negativity around here, and I thought it was a ridiculous post. Now I'm beginning to see its merit.

Lastly, and more light heartedly, CarneVaca, have you ever thought of being a rhetor of some kind. You'd be very good at it I think.

[Christopher]

Johnny, Its admirable that you try and reason with someone who appears to be so absolutely bitter that Lindsey did not release a solo disc and cannot tolerate Stevie of late OR her own unique brilliance.

Its a shame it always comes down to Lindsey VS. Stevie. They are a group after all.....and seem to be enjoying making music together for the first time since probably the WHITE ALBUM!! Albeit I sure no feelings were spared in the studio either, there is alot riding on this recording, and EVERYONE in the band surely pushed to get the best performances and compositions for this release!

While Lindsey is certainly responsible for his share of 3-4 chord wonders AND re-treading song themes also. His songs have made a major transformation since OOTC-I have a newfound respect for his "songwriting" since that release.....before I really just admired his unique guitar sense, production expertise and workman-ship" He IS brilliant!!-but arguably Stevie and Lindsey together takes everything to the next level- they are the perfect yin-yang and balance the others indulgences, quirks, energy or whatever you want to label it.

I like this new song,............ALOT! ....Its sort of deceptive in its organic sound and seemingly simple structure but is really a slice of pop perfection, ...this sounds like a great song...I hope the rest of it lives up to this little snippet......of the 3 most of us have heard so far, this one makes the most sense for the lead single.

this debate is just another endless example of "you can't and WONT please everyone"...

But I still love reading everyones opinions even if they differ with mine...that is what brings me back to this board again and again-like a bad relationship LOL!

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm not saying that you shouldn't express the opinion that you don't like something... I just find the statements of a lack of objectivity, to be belittling to many of the people on these boards. And that's not even based solely on my viewpoint, as several people have expressed this concern to me. So, as a moderator, I'm just trying to make sure that *everyone* feels their opinion is respected, whether I share the opinion or not.

I made a comment about objectivity. Since when is that such a crime? You chose to reply to a comment I made and in the process made some statements that I felt warranted a reaction. If you don't want my reaction, I would suggest you therefore not engage in discussions with me. Isn't that what you and other moderators have advised me to do? Secondly, when you accuse me of belittling anybody, I would advise you to go back and reread my posts and yours. An objective person would agree that I haven't even come close to saying anything insulting to you or anybody else on this board. The highest grievance you seem to have is my use of the term "objective." Yet, you have used rhetorical devices to indirectly call me "naive," "hypocritical," "snobish" and accused me of "belittling." You're not addressing a fool; I know when I'm being insulted. And if the roles were reversed, I would be getting a strike. Your continuous resorting to back-door ways to insult me should be beneath the behavior of a moderator on these boards. You also seem to be implying that people have complained to you about me, but I can't really tell from what you wrote because it's a little unclear. If that's the case, Johnny, why not tell me privately what these concerns are? Do you as a moderator think it's appropriate to air out your dirty laundry against me in this way? Do you think it's proper to post publicly on these boards comments that people told you in private? Isn' that against Ledge rules? It smacks of a personal grudge, which I believe is against Ledge rules, and you owe me an apology.

I don't recall saying that they were. I merely asked why anyone would *want* to be a "starving artist.

Reread your post. Within the contest of what you said, the "starving artist" comment was clearly still within the contest of Lindsey and Stevie. If that is not what you meant, you didn't express that clearly.

But, still, you're getting paid for your services, so I imagine you've sometimes been given assignments, that you'd really rather not have to do... but if you didn't, you wouldn't keep your job, and wouldn't continue earning money for your present and your future.

You don't know enough about me to make such assumptions. I'm not a compromising kind of person, if it isn't obvious yet.

Lindsey, Stevie, et al., have at this particular moment in time... if they were to stop recording or touring after this album, or even the next, that money would most likely not last another 20 or 30 years.

How do you know that? I just read somewhere Lindsey was building some big new house. His old one didn't look too shabby. I think you make too many assumptions.

Johnny, if you want to make personal attacks, why don't you just send me a personal message? I'd rather not get dragged into a public fight with you, and you seem bent on baiting me. Go back and reread my posts, starting with my original take on this "Say You Will" song. Bella Figura chose to reply in a lighthearted way. She knows how I feel about Stevie and Lindsey, and though she disagrees, she didn't feel the need to call me "naive," "snobbish" or hypocritical.

Oh, and last week you implied on another thread that I was a "mysoginist." Can you imagine if I had so much as implied something that ugly about anyone else on this board?

Leave the characterizations for the people you know, dude. Not me.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Sorcerer386
Objective minded? I'm sorry CarneVaca, but you are OBVIOUSLY so subjective to Lindsey's music just as a lot of us are to Stevie's music.

Not to be a wise ass, but I never expected the term "objective" to cause such controversy on this board. Besides, my positions on Lindsey vs. Stevie are clear. My reference to "objective-minded" had to do with a concurrent thread on this song in which some folks seem to share my sentiments on this song.

yet one foul word against Lindsey and it's the pits for any Stevie fan.

I seem to recall a couple of weeks ago a playful remark by Bella Figura after I slammed Lindsey on one of these boards. Therefore your premise is a little off. I myself have criticized Lindsey many times. No one seems to mind. When I say a word or two against the goddess Stevie, all hell breaks loose. Now let's examine the objectivity of that.

So Stevie writes with the same three chords, WELL, did you like the OTHER songs she wrote with those same three chords?

I'll answer this way: Bob Dylan and John Prine used the same three chords over and over, and sometimes the same progressions. But the songs were interesting. Do you know why? Because they had something new and interesting to say in each one of them. Not the case with Stevie. Put up her body of work against Dylan's or Prine's. Look at it objectively and tell me that she broke as much new ground lyrically with each song as those guys did.

Lastly, and more light heartedly, CarneVaca, have you ever thought of being a rhetor of some kind. You'd be very good at it I think.

Do you mean like being some kind of speaker dude? Not my thing. I prefer to write.

Hey, keep in mind, I'm a Stevie fan. I just don't like everything she does.

[Sugar]

Look, anyone who reads these boards knows how Carne feels about Stevie, more specifically, the Stevie of now. And ulitmately, Carne is just one guy! It amazes me time and time again that so many people get so riled because this one guy says less than shimmering things about Stevie. Who cares what this one guy thinks? And anything Carne has ever said pales in comparison to what I've heard most people (non-fans) I know say about her! A little perspective people!

I for one have no problem with anything Carne has said (how often do you hear that about anyone?) More importantly, Stevie's career is just fine, and I don't think Carne's opinion will really have any effect on it, nor do I think she would give a white winged dove's ass about what he thinks. So what are we doing, people?

I have gotten into light tangles with Carne, and admit that he can be a little rough (poor Mrs. Carne!) since he obviously has a very good command of the English language, a better-than-average musical sense as well as a strong opinion. But never was he disrespectful, only forceful, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Honorable mention to Bella who, yet again, has made her point both effectively and gracefully.

And...who watchers the Watchers, indeed...

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, if you want to make personal attacks, why don't you just send me a personal message?

The intention of my posts within this thread, and my posts within ANY thread, have never been to personally attack you, or anyone.

I'd refrained from contacting you about complaints I've received, because I was hoping it could be sorted out (and you may be surprised to know how many times I've defended your right to express your opinions, in the manner you choose).
But as this thread continued, I was presented an opportunity to bring the situation to your attention, so I was hoping that if I brought it up in this manner, it would help to keep you from feeling persecuted for your opinions.
In hindsight, it had just the opposite effect, and I should have realized that sooner. It was just my initial gut-reaction that a private email would seem more harsh.

But, if it was going to be discussed, it should have been done privately... and I apologize for my poor judgement.

I can honestly say that I have absolutely no personal vendetta against you. We may strongly disagree on many things, but I'm the type of person who enjoys hearing all sides of everything. And if someone proves me wrong, I'm the first one to admit it.
My father and I used to debate various topics quite heatedly when I was growing up... many of those debates ending with one of us storming out of the room in disgust or anger... but I still loved (and do love) my Dad, whether we saw eye to eye or not.
I don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

As for the "mysoginist" comment, I really was being jestful and absurd... as I was hoping to move our banter into more lighthearted territory.
Based on your response at the time, I thought you had taken it in the manner I had intended.

Again, I apologize for the manner in which I brought the complaints your attention. I had hoped it would give an example of how certains statements were being perceived, but it was still poor judgement, and I'm genuinely sorry.



Johnny Stew

[Wldhrt315]

Well it seems people are upset now. Johnny Stew apologized to Mr. CarneVaca which seems like a plea to stop the arguing. I hope it works. Maybe Carne could apologize to his fellow "friends" (Ledgies) - not for having his thoughts and feelings on any topic in this thread or past threads but for the manner in which in you express such thoughts on the board. It seems like you have a lack of respect for people who feel differently than you. If you don't care what anyone else thinks, thats one thing but don't try to understand what anyone is thinking, it starts to be convoluted and messy. I am sure you like all the attention your messages are getting but please watch the way you word things. Internet communication is the toughest form of communicating, you don't see body language, you can't sense a tone in ones voice so if people take what you type completely different then the way you meant then I think you should watch how you word your comments for future discussions. This goes for everyone, myself included.
It is nice to be opinionated and I like reading some of your posts because you seem very knowledgeable but I would appreciate you if you acknowledge things in a non-confrontational way. Thank you!

[seteca]

Just my two cents on the original question at hand, I do think this will be the first single. Mick and FM's site pointing us in its direction, plus the fact that it was used on a 1 min national TV ad means that this is, most likely, gonna be the case. As for is it THE song fans have been waiting for.....let's wait and see.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
But, if it was going to be discussed, it should have been done privately... and I apologize for my poor judgement.

Apology accepted. In the future, if people complain about me and you want to bring it to my attention, please do so privately. I will be happy to discuss any concerns you have. When I have a problem with a person, I pull him/her aside and confront the situation. I've made great friends that way... Oh, and I lost a couple, but f*ck em!

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wldhrt315
Maybe Carne could apologize to his fellow "friends" (Ledgies) - not for having his thoughts and feelings on any topic in this thread or past threads but for the manner in which in you express such thoughts on the board. It seems like you have a lack of respect for people who feel differently than you.

Jeeeeesus! Like Sugar said, let's have some perspective. I was attacked for using the term "objective-minded." A couple of folks jumped on me for it. Bob Marley said, "If the hat fits, let them wear it." Because I made a point by using the term "objective-minded" I'm being disrespectful!? Wow! Go read the original sentence in question again. I simply don't see where the disrespect is.

you don't care what anyone else thinks, thats one thing but don't try to understand what anyone is thinking, it starts to be convoluted and messy.

I'm not sure what you are saying with "IT starts to be convoluted and messy." By IT, I don't know what you mean. If you mean that I've been convoluted in stating opinions, I will gladly attempt to restate them more clearly.

am sure you like all the attention your messages are getting but please watch the way you word things.

Far as I can tell, I've expressed myself pretty clearly on this thread and watched my words. The issue in question seems to be that you object to my using the term "objective," if I understand you correctly. As I mentioned before, I don't believe that is an insult. You're asking me not to be confrontational. I'm just not sure how that applies here. Yes I've used confrontational words, but if I say I don't expect brilliance from Stevie, am I insulting other Ledge members? I don't see it, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

[chiliD]

It just seems to be the "way things are and always will be" when it comes to fans choosing sides in the "Lindsey vs Stevie" (and vice versa) debate. It's not just a "Fleetwood Mac" thing, either. The heated polarization of fans of different members of bands is commonplace. These "L vs S" things are just SO laughable compared to Beatle websites and the "John vs Paul" stuff...you'd think that one was Arafat and one Sharon. It's THAT heated!! Even makes the trials & tribulations of the Davies brothers & Gallagher brothers seem comical.

And in the words of that great Lennon/McCartney (or is it McCartney/Lennon?) tune....."Let It Be".

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiliD
(or is it McCartney/Lennon?)

Now you've done it!!

[blinker12]

Because I made a point by using the term "objective-minded" I'm being disrespectful!?

Frankly, yes. What you originally said was "...that won't change the fact that [Stevie] simply cannot write the way she once did. I think other objective-minded folks have made similar comments on these boards."
First of all, your assertion that Stevie cannot write the way she once did is not, in fact, a "fact." It's your opinion. That you call your opinion a fact is, in itself, insulting to people who don't happen to share your opinion.
You go on to say that "objective-minded folks" (a group in which you presumably include yourself) would agree with you. The obvious implication is that only subjective-minded folks _ i.e. Stevie's blindly adoring fans _ would disagree. And yes, that is disrespectful to people who like Stevie's recent music for the music itself, and not because they are mindless devotees.
What offends people is not that you are expressing your opinion, CarneVaca. It's the way you choose to express it. I hope I've made clear exactly why _ at least in this particular case _ your approach was disrespectful.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by blinker12
The obvious implication is that only subjective-minded folks _ i.e. Stevie's blindly adoring fans _ would disagree. And yes, that is disrespectful to people who like Stevie's recent music for the music itself, and not because they are mindless devotees.

I think it’s possible to make an academic distinction between good and bad writing. That is an objective endeavor, so long as you do it with academic integrity. Liking a song, regardless of the lyrics, melody or arrangement, is subjective. There are bad songs I like. They are bad from a lyrical standpoint, or musically. Knowing they’re bad doesn’t make me not want to listen to them. There is good music I cannot stand to hear (P.J. Harvey comes to mind). Then there are bad songs that I simply don’t want to waste my time with.
Does Stevie write like she once did? Absolutely not. For instance:

Wait a minute baby/Stay with me awhile/Said you'd give me light/But you never told me about the fire/Drowning in the sea of love/Where everyone would love to drown
And now it's gone/It doesn't matter anymore/When you build your house/Call me home [Sara]

That’s an example of inspired writing. Here are some examples of uninspired writing:

You, beloved/Were to me everything/That love stood for/To love one another for awhile/Was enough/It was all that I lived for/How can I go on without you/Can I go on without you/I tell myself this time/I'm going to have to move on [Bombay Sapphires]

It’s all rather pedestrian. Why use the term “beloved?” It’s like trying to grasp for poetic value when the simpler words (i.e., “my dear”) would have done the trick and resonated more. The rest of the passage is cliche and uninspired -- it contains not one shred of an original thought. That’s bad writing.

I've been with you before/I'll be with you again/I'll come back for more, yea/The story has a strange ending [Candlebright]

This is like explaining the punchline to a joke. Don’t tell me it’s a strange ending. Describe the ending and let me decide if it was strange. If it was, and I reach that conclusion, you’ve done the job effectively as a writer.

Ooh, downstairs where the/Big old house is mine/Ooh, upstairs where the/Stars laugh and shine/Oh, Oh well I thought that/You were mine/Well I thought that You were mine [Welcome to the Room... Sara]

I can’t even go into this one without breaking in convulsions. I mean, to begin with, there is an atrocious misuse of grammar and style on the title.

I hope that helps. As you can see, I was making an academic distinction between what I consider to be good and bad writing. You of course are perfectly entitled to disagree with my assessment. I’ve said it on previous discussions: I will not argue tastes. That is a losing proposition. But I will continue to argue about the quality of the music itself and the writing.

Now, you think my approach was disrespectful. I disagree, and that is a subjective assessment.

[Bella Figura]

thanks Sugar!!!

not to get into this fray,( how many freakin' times have I said that??? ) but there are many examples of aggressive speech in the Media (Sean Hannity, that other Irish guy what's his name, and even liberal Phil D. who actually pioneered this type of speech) and more and more people with strong opinions are using this style to communicate their positions.

This type of speech really ends up communicating to (and entertaining) an audience rather than directly debating an adversary. This use is intended by the media who need advertising $$$, whether this intention follows thru in indiviual debates is less clear. But aggressive speech is targeting you the audience not the other debater, and can not be truly defined as discouse and/or debate.

I personally find aggressive speech tends to dissolve intelligent discourse into a manic verbal tennis match and winds up being a perverse form of entertainment (like a good car crash). So YOU the audience must use your own intelligence, wit and experience and try not get sucked into the mania. If you are able to take with humor the absurdity created by aggresive speech, it then dissolves into entertainment...and must be viewed as such.

as far as 'Say You Will", I like it and that's all that really matters in my foxhole...