Off-Topic: Elton John today

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I don't like when a star wants to make controversy with his ideas. I'm not sure if Elton is looking for this, or was just authentic. Saying Jesus is gay will make upset lot of people. The topic is complicated, and we (all the humanity) will never agree 100%

Why he says that to the press? I don't find it necessary. And I want to make clear that I don't consider saying he was gay is an insult. Not at all.

I just think what I think about Jesus, God, and everything in life. And believe it's a lot different from what the church says. But I'm not looking for controversy. I love Elton but this time I don't think he did the right thing.

I totally agree with everything you're saying, and I'm a gay man. How can Elton say in one line that he hates fame... and in the next line make some huge inflammatory proclamation bound to send out ripples? The answer is, he still very much loves fame. I don't know... everyone has their own way of approaching religion, spirituality, etc. My relationship with my beliefs is extremely private to me... like a marriage. I tend to think anyone who wears anything on their sleeves, be it their sexuality, their religious beliefs, whatever... has some unresolved issues of their own. There's definitely a difference between openness and wearing things on your sleeve, too. But, this is just my way of approaching things... to each their own, I say!

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I totally agree with everything you're saying, and I'm a gay man. How can Elton say in one line that he hates fame... and in the next line make some huge inflammatory proclamation bound to send out ripples? The answer is, he still very much loves fame. I don't know... everyone has their own way of approaching religion, spirituality, etc. My relationship with my beliefs is extremely private to me... like a marriage. I tend to think anyone who wears anything on their sleeves, be it their sexuality, their religious beliefs, whatever... has some unresolved issues of their own. There's definitely a difference between openness and wearing things on your sleeve, too. But, this is just my way of approaching things... to each their own, I say!

Louie, great points as well. I am a Christian but I certainly don't want anyone to be so turned off by my beliefs that they don't want to talk to me or think of me as a hater of anything. I don't believe hate produces any kind of good whatsoever.

[Angel69]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Interesting. Do you know the reason why the new testament okays the eating of pork? I noticed you only quoted the old testament and was curious if you were aware of the references in the new testament which describes the new covenant.

At any rate, pork is unhealthy for you --- and if people would stop looking at the Bible as a lists of "I can'ts" and instead as a book of instruction they would realize that the laws and rules that were put into place were for people's own protection.

Please note that this was required by God of His people in the Old Testament.
He set up many laws to keep His people pure. As pigs were seen as animals that
ate garbage etc. God called them unclean. Pigs/pork was not an acceptable
sacrifice for the attonement for sins. However, in the New Testament, this law
was "lifted." Because of Jesus' death on the cross (and resurrection),
sacrifices were no longer needed as Jesus was the final sacrifice and faith in
Him was the only way man could be pure before God. It was no longer necessary
for God's people to leave by these strict rules. God declares this once
unclean food clean in the following passage in a dream to Peter.
Acts 11:4-10
"4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened:
5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw
something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners,
and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals
of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a
voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'
8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my
mouth.'
9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that
God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up
to heaven again."

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

You didn't particularly call me a "right winger", but everyone that thinks
homosexuality is a sin doesn't hate you. Nor do they want to control you
life. Many will tell you the truth because they are worried about where your
sin (all sin) will take you. And that's Hell.

Even if you don't believe in Hell, can you imagine not telling someone that
they need to be saved or need to repent? Love is the reason that some Christians
will try and lead you to Christ.

I have my own sins, so I'm not throwing stones at you. And I know that many on
this board are homosexuals by their own admittance. Some of my favorites on this
board are very open about it. I hold no hatred for them (or any others on this
board). But I wouldn't lie about my thoughts on the subject just to make friends.
And I do believe it is a sin. And I wouldn't want to be Elton John in the afterlife.
Christ commited no sin, He was and will always be perfect.

And what kind of sanctimonious bull**** is that? That you are somehow so chaste and pure of thought that you can go around judging others and deeming who will/will not go to your so-called "hell?" Really? Is it still the Spanish Inquisition? You know what? Please stop worrying about others' souls and leave them be. Worry about your own conduct and the way you appear to sneer down at others. Believe it or not, we will all survive and live our lives merrily without your divine judgment of our ways.

[Nikolaj]

Thanks for tolerating this thread!
I'd like to answer iamnotafraid, and thank him for the Scriptures, many of which I am familiar with. There's so much to absorb, it takes a lifetime.
Here's my take on 'staying in sin', as you put it. It isn't possible for any human not to sin. I was gay before I became a Christian, and did, in many ways, live a sinful life, but my sins were not because of being gay. I've been born-again for nine years. I'm still homosexual. I'm on my second Bible now, nearly 1300 pages and haven't begun my page-by-page copying of written passages and written meditation on those passages. It took me about 3 years to do so with the 562 page King James version, and it was at times daunting, but it was also very freeing and life-affirming. Of the 29 books of the New Testament, I found inspiration especially from Acts, Proverbs, Psalms and Hebrews.
In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). Notice it did not say 'the homosexual shall not enter the Kingdom of God'--
So, one interpretation of several that I have, is that a homosexual offender is-- someone who offends a homosexual! Like gaybashers, homophobes...They won't enter the Kingdom of God. So, they should be more careful of how they treat men that God himself created. I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.
Now, I do believe that before my salvation, I was guilty of amoral and at times immoral conduct in how I lived as a gay man. That has changed. God is first with me, and any relationship I may have will have to be with a man who believes in and has accepted Jesus. Then only could I have expectations of a lasting relationship, one that God is overseeing. It hasn't happened yet. It may never happen. But that doesn't mean I can retry heterosexuality and make it work. In fact, it would be sinful for me to betray a woman (again) by trying to be something I just am not.
I am as He made me. You may be able to find scripture that states homosexuality is a sin; there is a potential for sinfulness in heterosexual lust, in all sexuality. Why homosexuality is still such an issue, I think, speaks more about the persons objecting, than of the actual act, or the way Jesus views it. That in itself is a lesson to those who take such issue with gays and it's a continuing lesson for me, and certainly I don't have all the answers and I'm still learning.
But, in accepting and receiving Jesus as my Savior, I'm not destined for Hell, which I certainly do believe is true, Hell exists. I have died to self and sin. I do seek God every day of my life. I am not enslaved anymore. I'm saved.
But, I will be a student of Christianity for the rest of my life, I will continue to grow in faith and to do so, I need to read and absorb New Testaments, Old Testaments, attend Baptist, Catholic, Methodist and churches of all denominations, to find where I belong. I have a very hard time with organized religion, but I don't give up. My relationship with Jesus is the single most important decision I have made in my life.
"I am not afraid"... I will go to Heaven.
Even if I s*** c***.
Sorry for the vulgar (edited) ending of this message, but imagine how you'd feel if you were told the only reason you were going to Hell was because your inclination, your personal truth, your instinct, was to have sexual relations with a woman. It would be preposterous.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

And what kind of sanctimonious bull**** is that? That you are somehow so chaste and pure of thought that you can go around judging others and deeming who will/will not go to your so-called "hell?" Really? Is it still the Spanish Inquisition? You know what? Please stop worrying about others' souls and leave them be. Worry about your own conduct and the way you appear to sneer down at others. Believe it or not, we will all survive and live our lives merrily without your divine judgment of our ways.

Me so chaste and pure? Did you really get that from what I wrote?
I wrote to the best of my ability not to sound judgemental. I wrote
about "my own sins". Without all the details I'm going through a horrible
time dealing with a family member. And right now I think I hate that person.
I believe it is one of the worst sins to commit, hatred for one's on brother. So
you're very wrong about me.

All sins lead to Hell. You might choose not to believe in such a place. And
the Lord has given you that right, or freedom to choose.

What type of person would I be, or any Christian for that matter, and just
pretended everything's going to be okay no matter what sin is committed?
Christ died in our place to save us from sin, yours and mine.

If you think I'm a horrible person I can't change that. If you look through
my post on this board I doubt you find little if any hate. Most of my post
are meant to be humorous. The reason I finally responded to this particular
thread was because of the blasphemy in Elton John's statement about Christ.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I'd like to answer iamnotafraid, and thank him for the Scriptures, many of which I am familiar with. There's so much to absorb, it takes a lifetime.

In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.

I don't have all the answers and I'm still learning.
But, in accepting and receiving Jesus as my Savior, I'm not destined for Hell, which I certainly do believe is true, Hell exists. I have died to self and sin. I do seek God every day of my life. I am not enslaved anymore. I'm saved.
But, I will be a student of Christianity for the rest of my life, I will continue to grow in faith and to do so, I need to read and absorb New Testaments, Old Testaments. My relationship with Jesus is the single most important decision I have made in my life.
"I am not afraid"... I will go to Heaven.

Nikolaj you are more than welcome for the Bible verses. They were mostly
from the "NEW KING JAMES VERSION".

I'm glad you are studying the Bible. And like you I'm still learning too.
And you're absolutely right that heterosexuals can offend God by committing
sin, just the same as homosexuals. The other poster seemed to miss the fact
that I said "all sin".

I'm also glad you read my post and didn't seem to think I was saying I'm better
than anyone else. I struggle as much or more than anyone on this board. And
most times, right or wrong I stay out of these serious discussions. But I was highly
offended by what was said about Christ. He paid such a huge price for us all, more
than our human minds can comprehend. When someone blasphemes against him
it hurts.

[Nikolaj]

Well, you're welcome. But, it was very snarky and deceptive the way you copied and pasted my message, editing the point - the damned good point- I made about the 'homosexual offender' line- you totally removed my rebuttal, and attempted to change what I wrote by omitting two passages, yet made it look like that was the way I had written it by having it as 'Originally posted by Nikolaj"-- What you edited out was not what I originally posted, and you know it.
Not fair, not honest, and really, for all the nerve it took, I come away with the impression that you lack integrity. I win the debate by your default, and to be honest, I won it on merit.

Here's what you quoted, and I'm putting back in, bold, what you cut out that you couldn't handle or just chose to ignore:

In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). Notice it did not say 'the homosexual shall not enter the Kingdom of God'--
So, one interpretation of several that I have, is that a homosexual offender is-- someone who offends a homosexual! Like gaybashers, homophobes...They won't enter the Kingdom of God. So, they should be more careful of how they treat men that God himself created. I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.

OK- now that that's done with, I wish you well. Forgiveness is hard sometimes, in this case it's so easy, I don't even need an apology
P.S. Forgive your brother! (None of my business, I know!) But, forgive him! You'll feel better and it will please God.
double PS-- If "I" had a brother, I may not have turned out queer! I'm not complaining, I'm content with the truth. But he's in your life for a reason- God wanted it that way!
(Seriously, I do wish you well and don't mean to make light of whatever your situation is). Peace, bud

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Well, you're welcome. But, it was very snarky, and deceptive the way you copied and pasted my message, editing the point - the damned good point- I made about the 'homosexual offender' line- you totally removed my rebuttal, and attempted to change what I wrote by omitting two passages, yet made it look like that was the way I had written it.Not fair, not honest, and really, for all the nerve it took, I come away with the impression that lack integrity. I win the debate by your default, and to be honest, I won it on merit.
.

I wasn't trying to be deceptive at all.
What chapter and verse in the Bible
says the line you mention about offender?

[Nikolaj]

[QUOTE=iamnotafraid;872876]I wasn't trying to be deceptive at all.

Yes, what you did was deceptive. You copied and pasted my message under a header of which the default is 'Originally Posted By (Nikolaj)' and then you removed a good portion of what I had written.

[iamnotafraid]

Nikolaj,
I responded to the part of your post I edited. I do that all the time.
If I left in everything you said it would have been harder to understand
my response to your post. Again I wasn't trying to be deceptive in the least.

And you're right about my brother I should forgive him, but I'm struggling
with it.

[Nikolaj]

I found the passage, right after- a second after- I asked God to help me find it, I found it on Page 282, I was growing weary of looking for it- I should have asked 281 pages earlier!
It's in Corinthians 1, Chapter 6:
"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God".

And, I'll let it rest with this comment: that you said 'you do it all the time' doesn't make it right, to remove a key point I was making to make it more suit what you care to respond to.
My point was/is that 'homosexual offender' is DIFFERENT than 'homosexual'--
If HE meant that "no homosexual shall enter the Kingdom of God"...it would say that. It does not.

Have a great Sunday.

[iamnotafraid]

Nikolaj,

Without using any of your response in my reply. I did not find what you had
said was written in the Bible. The following is what I found concerning the verses
posted:

NKJV
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be decieved. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the
kingdom of God.

[Zombie]

Ah, good ol' self-righteousness. It's such an intoxicating feeling, isn't it? We all succumb to it sometimes, and sure, it may help you feel better about yourself at the time and let you rest easy that night, so secure in the knowledge that you know what's what... but one day, you may wake up to realize that you've treated good people in a heinous way they absolutely didn't deserve just because you like the feeling - real or delusional, whatever the case may be - of being right.

It's discussions like these that remind me to be thankful I am atheist. I don't need a book to tell me who is and isn't a good person - all I need to do is open my eyes and my ears, and listen when someone opens his/her mouth - for good or for bad.

And damned if I don't love it when it's as easy to suss out as it is in this thread.

[tilthefirefades]

^ I couldn't have put it any better

I too feel reassured with my atheism