Songwriting Credits

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Kelly

However, I cannot understand how, with a song like Gypsy, more people do not believe that Lindsey deserves more than a production credit?!

I don't know about that really. The Bella Donna era version (the fast one, I'm assuming it's with Tom Petty) sounds a lot like the Gypsy we know and love. Lindsey, it seems to me, slowed the song down and added little flourishes here and there (which I totally admit brings it alive). He's a great producer and arranger and that's what they do.
I would compare Gypsy to Blondie's Heart Of Glass. The original version of that song is more of a reggae tune and much faster. Mike Chapman, the producer, wanted to turn it into a disco tune. It's still a Harry/Stein composition though.

[Nico]

Maybe Lindsey is really, really humble and just never cared enough. Ok, maybe not humble...maybe he just didn't want to associate himself too much with Stevie's songs. No disrespect to her songs whatsoever, but maybe he was really like one of those slightly chauvinistic/macho types who didn't want to be credited for some "girlie" song.

Ok, my explanation and reasoning is really lame. I have no idea what I am talking about. All I know is that whatever Lindsey did for Gypsy was brilliant because the song and production is gorgeous.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by Lux

Maybe guitar riffs fall purely into arrangement but I wouldn't deny that his is one instance where the line between arranger and co-writer seems consistently blurred. He's had plenty of time to get over it but it would grate at one's nerves to see most of her songs attributed by the masses, purely to her. There's so many cases but to take the example of Rhiannon. Not to deny her contributions (she got the credit, she's not being denied anything) but to focus on his, you only have to listen to The Dance version to note where a large part of the success of the song lies. Or the case with GDW, a masterpiece that without him was a rather ordinary, basic 'tune'. Obviously according to their arrangements it was never catergorised as 'writing' which is unfortunate for him because his official credits do not represent his contributions.

If he cared about it you'd think he'd have asked for credit. I don't think he needed to get over anything, except maybe the constant downplaying Stevie does when speaking of his contributions to her songs, like in the article I cited above. She often points out how they never wrote songs together. He only produced. Whatever.

Everybody knows they didn't sit down and write songs together. As another poster pointed out, she didn't do that with her credited co-writers, either. I'm not saying Stevie doesn't write her own songs. She just finds it hard to give much credit to Lindsey for making her FM songs hit worthy but she doesn't mind admitting she needs help with songwriting in her solo career or that she needs to depend on writing lyrics to other people's music to get hits. Somehow she never needed help with her FM material until Tango? When I listen to a lot of her raw demos, I don't hear the same song as the final result. To me, it's not the lyrics that make the song. Her songs are almost void of musicality until the guitar parts, bridges, and other instrumentation are added. In the case of Rhiannon, does anyone think the plodding piano demo is the same song as the BN live performance or the White Album radio hit? Is it the great lyrics that perk your ears up to listen when you hear that song on the radio or is it all the additional guitar work and rockin tempo?

Stevie is properly credited as the songwriter on all songs she wrote. I'd think absent a contract with a co-writer, (she obviously didn't have one with Lindsey) it would be up to Stevie to admit how much help she got, or to credit another person for changing her original musical concept so much, that musically, it was hardly recognizable from the original song. The more interesting question is: Do you think Stevie was/is happy about the many changes made to her FM songs even when the end result produced a hit?
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[ShangriLaTroubl]

I think most will agree Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs has been magnificent, and deserving of a lot of credit...but because he arranged the music doesn't mean he should get credit for the songwriting..

I mean should Sheryl Crow be considered a co-author of Candlebright since she produced and arranged the music? Lindsey get's production credit, but not the songwriting credit for a song like say Gypsy..

Chris

[catinthedark]

I'm not sure the songwriting credits when it comes to Stevie Nicks are any different from the majority of songwriting credits. The person who writes the lyrics and the basic melody is the songwriter. Every song, be a Britney Spears track (and no one can argue THAT hasn't been majorly produced) or a Stevie Nicks track starts out as a basic tune (usually played on piano or guitar) and some words. Producers and arrangers get credits for the producing and arranging they do. Taking a piano demo like Rhiannon and turning it into the end product we know and love is what an arranger and producer do. That is their job. I don't think Lindsey himself, or any other producer or arranger if they were honest, would argue they WROTE the song. If Stevie hadn't come up with the basic tune and words of Rhiannon, that song would not exist in any way, shape, or form today. I think we're all a little close to this argument because we all feel so strongly about Stevie and Lindsey's work (be it on each others' works, or not). But if you think of someone like Diane Warren, who has written hundreds of hit songs, for such a wide variety of singers in a wide variety of genres - you'd never GUESS what they could become. I have heard some of her demos through the years. Most songs start life as stark demos - they get instruments and harmonies and production added to them. But still, Diane Warren is the songwriter.

Similarly, Stevie doesn't ever get credit (and no one ever suggests she should) for the harmonies she adds to Lindsey's songs. Never does Christine get credit for adding the piano/keyboard harmonies and vocal harmonies that she does. That's just part of being in a band. Someone gives birth to the song - the songwriter. The other band members help to enrich it, and the producer and arranger (and mixer) take it to another whole dimension.

Just my two cents.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career? Many of Stevie's songs, as first concieved, are so far removed from the final product that anyone can tell they are not record worthy as written. In the days before Pro Tools it was up to somebody to make them worthy of recording. If that person wanted to get paid you can bet they'd insist on credit for their music. When other people helped her with songs she gave them credit, except Lindsey. I guess we can count Frozen Love, but that's all I know of as co-credited before her solo recordings.

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally Posted by catinthedark

Just my two cents.

And what a great two cents it was! You said was I was trying to say much better...I totally agree

Chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?

It was to my understanding that those who got cowriting credit throughout her solo career actually contributed to the lyrics in some way..IE : I know I read somewhere that Sandy Stewart gave a line or two to "If Anyone Falls" and it is credited as Written By : S. Nicks and S. Stewart

And "If I were You" didnt she somewhere say Rick Nowels wrote some certain line and it is credit as Written By: S. Nicks, R. Nowels


Sandy Stewart wrote "Seven Wonders" but Stevie contributed a line or two and is also credited..

I always thought that if the person contributed to the LYRICS then they received the songwriting credit..

Also to mention--it seems on her albums now she will have Words and Music by : Stevie Nicks

or in the case of "I Miss You" it is credited as Words by : Stevie Nicks
Music by : Rick Nowels

I think that is a more appropriate way to credit a song myself

Chris

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

When I listen to a lot of her raw demos, I don't hear the same song as the final result. To me, it's not the lyrics that make the song. Her songs are almost void of musicality until the guitar parts, bridges, and other instrumentation are added. In the case of Rhiannon, does anyone think the plodding piano demo is the same song as the BN live performance or the White Album radio hit? Is it the great lyrics that perk your ears up to listen when you hear that song on the radio or is it all the additional guitar work and rockin tempo?

If we're defining "song" the way the music world defines it, then yes, Stevie's piano demo of "Rhiannon" is the same song as the album recording and the live performances. Again, the lyrics, melody and chords are all there. It doesn't matter how different those versions sound, if different instruments or a different tempo are used. It's the same song, because the basic structure of the song is the same.

Think about it in terms of jazz. Who was it, Rodgers and Hammerstein? Wrote a little song for a movie musical, called "My Favorite Things." John Coltrane did things with that song that they never could have imagined, he ran circles around the melody, threw in all those incredible solos. The song sounds nothing like the version sung by Julie Andrews. But John Coltrane does not get songwriting credit on that song. And for good reason. I imagine R&H would have been quite miffed if Coltrane grabbed their song, their melody and chord progression, and was able to claim it as his own (even in part) simply by changing the instrumentation and the rhythm and by soloing over/around/through it.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by catinthedark

Similarly, Stevie doesn't ever get credit (and no one ever suggests she should) for the harmonies she adds to Lindsey's songs. Never does Christine get credit for adding the piano/keyboard harmonies and vocal harmonies that she does. That's just part of being in a band. Someone gives birth to the song - the songwriter. The other band members help to enrich it, and the producer and arranger (and mixer) take it to another whole dimension.

Just my two cents.

Stevie doesn't give Chris credit, but Chris and Lindsey have shared credit on many songs. In all those cases, did Chris not have chords? She only had words and didn't know how her songs should sound, or did Lindsey toss in a few lyrics and share credit? If people feel the skeleltons Stevie presented to Lindsey or the band, like Rhiannon, Dreams, or Gold Dust Woman were actual songs, even when new chords and instrumental passages were added to create a very different song, there's no issue. I don't see the average producer taking a songwriter's original and adding their own additional guitar music and extra bridges and breaks, or even giving it to session guitarists and telling them to add extra music to the song and edit the lyrics for nothing except a chance to play on the song. Maybe that happens? As far as sharing credit with Sheryl Crow on songs like Candlebright or Sorcerer, those songs are almost exactly the same as the versions Stevie did with Lindsey in BN. He didn't get credit so why should she? Sheryl produced less than half of TISL. I can't count how many times Stevie's showered her with praise for helping make that record. She doesn't do that with music produced by Lindsey. I notice she often gets defensive about his contributions or criticizes what he does with her songs. Anyone want to venture a guess if she even likes what he does, or she just accepts it because of band politics?

[Hippocampus]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

Stevie doesn't give Chris credit, but Chris and Lindsey have shared credit on many songs. In all those cases, did Chris not have chords? She only had words and didn't know how her songs should sound, or did Lindsey toss in a few lyrics and share credit?

"Many" a song? They wrote "World Turning" together and collaborated on some Tango tunes and that's just about it.
I recall reading an interview in which Stevie admitted that she felt jealous about Lindsey's collaboration with Chris on "World Turning" because she had never written a song with him from the ground up. So this is definitely not a case of a songwriter giving credit to another for a mere arrangement or stray idea.
As for the Tango songs, I'm inclined to believe it's more of the same, Lindsey and Chris both working together as opposed to one helping out the other, with the possible exception of Isn't It Midnight (for which Lindsey gets partial credit for the music).

[Hippocampus]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

I don't know about that really. The Bella Donna era version (the fast one, I'm assuming it's with Tom Petty) sounds a lot like the Gypsy we know and love. Lindsey, it seems to me, slowed the song down and added little flourishes here and there (which I totally admit brings it alive). He's a great producer and arranger and that's what they do.

Exactly. By the time Lindsey got to play around with "Gypsy" for Mirage, the song had evolved from a threadbare demo to a more elaborate demo and then to a full band outtake with Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers which was recorded during the Bella Donna sessions. "Gypsy" is really a bad example to use in this case.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by AliP

Thanks for explaining. I never quite understood the difference. So I guess people don't get credit for arrangement?

If it's a significant amount of arranging, then they can get a producer credit.

Movie business producer = music business record executive
Movie business director = music business producer

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?

I think Stevie ran out of musical ideas around the Wild Heart era. I'm assuming from what I've read and heard that she receives music tracks from various trusted sources. If she likes what she hears, she sings along to them with her cut and paste from her journals. If the amalgam works out, she records and (possibly) releases it.

"Running Through the Garden" and "Battle of the Dragon" - the music to both of these songs was written by the same team (g. nicholson & j. jarvis). These songs were finished during the same RAL period.

Mike Campell from the Heartbreakers has consistently sent her music tracks. Benmont Tench gave her one, too (the infamous "Desert Angel").

Again, I think Stevie ran out of new music ideas quite some time ago. She used to write all the time in the I IV V key of G in her early days. All those "Anybody There" / "Stay Away" / "Amber" songs are all like that- "That's Alright" was also originally in G. With "Rhiannon" came the days of Am and all the subsequent key of F songs- "Beautiful Child", "Sisters of the Moon", "Gypsy", "Sara", "Outside the Rain", "Straight Back", "Sable on Blond", "No Spoken Word", "Sweet Girl", "Fall From Grace"....

Other than that, she has occasional hiccough of songs that are based on bass line driven chord progressions- "Blue Lamp", "Baby Doll", "Whole Lotta Trouble" and "Trouble In Shangri-La" are all songs where the chord progression follows Stevie's bass line "melody".

It all makes sense to me. She's not really a musician, so it can become difficult to write inspired songs with the same old chords. Trouble is- it can even be MORE uninspired when one adds clumsy lyrics and a half-assed melody to someone else's music ("That Made Me Stronger" "Love Changes" )

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

I think most will agree Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs has been magnificent, and deserving of a lot of credit...but because he arranged the music doesn't mean he should get credit for the songwriting..

I mean should Sheryl Crow be considered a co-author of Candlebright since she produced and arranged the music? Lindsey get's production credit, but not the songwriting credit for a song like say Gypsy..

Chris

To me that is not even remotely the same as what I am talking about. When I listen to the piano demo of Gypsy, it sounds NOTHING like what is on Mirage. Stevie does not have the same relationship with Sheryl as she has had with LIndsey over the years. SnL spent months in the studio working on tunes...hours and hours of time to noodle and figure little things out with songs. I think Lindsey had heard Gypsy before the BD sessions but I have no proof of that. Who knows what he did with it and exactly when? I am not saying that Stevie should not get credited for her lyrics..but I am sure over the years, there are times when Lindsey contributed more to her songs than just production. (as other producers and artists have done with her co authored songs)
I see this topic as a slippery slope that I will stay away from after this because no one is going to change their opinion. So many people want to see aspects of their dynamic as black and white..she wrote it, he produced it. I see the possibility that the lines could have become blurred at times. It seems much more logical and reasonable to me, that given the amount of time the band spent together in the early years, particularly SnL during the BN years, that at some point Lindsey helped her with the melody and chords of one of her songs. He is not credited with EVER doing so.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

I can't count how many times Stevie's showered (Sheryl) with praise for helping make that record. She doesn't do that with music produced by Lindsey. I notice she often gets defensive about his contributions or criticizes what he does with her songs. Anyone want to venture a guess if she even likes what he does, or she just accepts it because of band politics?

I've never taken her comments to be a defensive posturing. The way it reads to me, is that Stevie is just trying to explain that her and Lindsey did not "write songs together," in a traditional sense.
There was no "Ooh, I like that line, let's keep it -- ok, now for the next line, how about if we sing _____."

I thought she was being very honest when she described her songs as "little skeletons" when she brings them to Lindsey.
What is a skeleton, but bare bones?

She readily admits that Lindsey then takes said skeleton, and fleshes it out (to continue the metaphor) to the living, breathing song it becomes.
Sometimes she loves how it turned out... other times she feels that it moved in a direction she hadn't intended for it. But, either way, she obviously trusts Lindsey's talents and appreciates what he does for her songs.

Let's move away from the Stevie/Lindsey dynamic for a minute, and discuss the Christine/Lindsey dynamic.
Lindsey has stated on several occasions that he feels his greatest contribution to Fleetwood Mac was not as a songwriter or guitarist, but as a producer with the innate ability to take "raw material from the girls," and turn it into something special.

Despite him having said that, I don't recall a single Christine interview I've ever read, where she gives Lindsey any credit for her songs beyond what he does as a producer.
Out of five albums, "World Turning," "Mystified," "Isn't It Midnight," and both parts of "You And I," are the only songs on which they share a songwriting credit. And that's most likely because they actually sat down together and wrote those songs together, "from the ground up" -- each offering lyrical and melodical contributions in the process. (In the case of "Isn't It Midnight," Lindsey shares credit with Christine and Eddy for having written the music, while Christine has sole credit for the lyrics.)

Also, Ken Caillat and Richard Dashut were producing those albums alongside Lindsey... and who knows how much they contributed to the final product in regards to many of those songs, too.