Something I have long believed, now being confirmed

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

. They will decry the radical's actions publicly, but privately, many are channeling HUGE sums of money to these monsters. Lets face it, without these contributions, the radicals would not be able to do what they are doing! it takes LOTS of $$ to carry off the type of operations such as 9/11 and others.

Now you're on to something. Who's giving them the money? It ain't small donations. Follow the money.
With respect ot 9/11, what occured on the surface would seem to indicate radical muslims but the deeper wade into those waters, the more you will find certain factions of the Saudi government and royal family and their connections to the NeoCons in our own government.
Why did Bush redact 27 pages of the 9/11 commission report that dealt with the Saudis? You'll find the answer in the thread I posted about Senator Graham's book.

[irishgrl]

Well, now, I have known for some time that the Saudi Royal family has been paying off the terrorists in exchange for letting things be in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is very vulnerable. In Saudi Arabia, they are seen as part of the problem because they make deals with Westerners, especially the US which many Arabs see as evil. Therefore, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists large amounts of money with the agreement that they will not act against the House of Saud. Not only that, but there are other wealthy sympathizers who give large amounts of $$ to wage war against the infidels. PUBLICLY, the Arab world says that the terrorism is bad, but PRIVATELY, it is a different story. This is part of my issue with the rest of the Muslim community: I think they need to play a bigger role in stopping their own criminals. Otherwise, it appears to me as though they condone these acts of terrorism. If they sit by and do nothing, even though they proclaim the acts as evil, then their words
are hollow and false. And to me, they are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. And funding these terrorists is EVIL.

Also, I have heard that part of the cause of 9/11 resides in the White House. This would not surprise me in the least. I think Dumbya is capable of a LOT.

[tommer]

When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)


how often would you find such statements in the bible or the new testament?

[Mari]

easy.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com

Not that I agree with everything said on that site, but the point is: if you look hard enough, you can find quotes just about anything good or bad in most holy books.

[wondergirl9847]

ALL blacks commit crimes and are on welfare.

ALL white people are greedy and shallow.

ALL Jews like discounts on their merchandise.

ALL Hispanics listen to only Tejano music.

Gimme a break.

[EnchantedSLN]

Originally Posted by tommer

[COLOR=Navy]When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

Also from the Qur'an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion.
2:256

Do not let the injustice of others lead you into injustice.
5:8

[Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you] but begin no hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors.
2:190

Do not destroy yourselves; surely, God is most gracious to you.
4:29

Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians, and Sabians--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness-- shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear....
2:52

Every religion's holy book has parts that are selectively ignored and/or attributed to the social/political contexts of the historical period they were written in or bias of the writer. I.e. in Christianity you don't still stone people and sell your children into slavery or persecute Pagans. Not every Muslim accepts the parts of the Qur'an you quoted just as not every Christian accepts all parts of the Bible. Strict adherance to and belief in everything in the Qur'an is not required for one to be a Muslim, and in fact, there are plenty who dismiss a great deal of what's in the Qur'an.

Mari dug up some good examples of comparable verses in the Bible.

Also, a triviality, but "holy war" is one of multiple translations of "jihad" (and incidentally the media's favorite.) Some scholars interpret it as "struggle in the name of Allah," which does not necessarily mean war in the combat sense.

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by EnchantedSLN

There are Muslims all over the world who live in peace in their communities and would never kill anyone based on the way some of their peers interpret the Qur'an. Yes, Muslim groups are responsible for a lot of terrorism across the globe, but be very careful not to demonize all Muslims with such a reactionary blanket statement.

very well said tiff!!!~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by Mari

easy.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com

Not that I agree with everything said on that site, but the point is: if you look hard enough, you can find quotes just about anything good or bad in most holy books.

etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com
this site was very interesting 2 me, thanx 4 the link~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[dissention]

Originally Posted by wondergirl9847

ALL blacks commit crimes and are on welfare.

ALL white people are greedy and shallow.

ALL Jews like discounts on their merchandise.

ALL Hispanics listen to only Tejano music.

Gimme a break.

And...

ALL people from Massachusetts are overtaxed assholes who will gladly rip someone a new asshole if they're challenged on anything.

I'm living proof.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Well, now, I have known for some time that the Saudi Royal family has been paying off the terrorists in exchange for letting things be in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is very vulnerable. In Saudi Arabia, they are seen as part of the problem because they make deals with Westerners, especially the US which many Arabs see as evil. Therefore, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists large amounts of money with the agreement that they will not act against the House of Saud. Not only that, but there are other wealthy sympathizers who give large amounts of $$ to wage war against the infidels. PUBLICLY, the Arab world says that the terrorism is bad, but PRIVATELY, it is a different story. This is part of my issue with the rest of the Muslim community: I think they need to play a bigger role in stopping their own criminals. Otherwise, it appears to me as though they condone these acts of terrorism. If they sit by and do nothing, even though they proclaim the acts as evil, then their words
are hollow and false. And to me, they are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. And funding these terrorists is EVIL.

The words "Arab" and "Muslim" are not mutually exclusive. Only about 12% of Muslim are Arabs.

[irishgrl]

Gold Dust:
I am not sure why you think I needed reminding of that, I was giving just ONE example of where the terrorists get their money. Maybe only 12% of the Muslims are Arab, but the VAST MAJORITY (if not ALL) of the Arabs are Muslim. And the Saudi Royal family pays the terrorists to leave them alone so they can continue their tenuous rule. Most Saudis deplore the Sauds having ANYTHING to do with Westerners, especially the US which they believe is helping Israel. Again, this is just ONE source of terrorist funding, there are also wealthy sympathisers, as I mentioned before. Also, Osama bin Laden is independently wealthy and we all know where HIS $$$ is going....

[irishgrl]

in my first post, I listed two links which debate this very issue (the Koran and its stance on jihad/prisoners) Please go back and take a look at them. And, in spite of what the Koran says about peace, etc, Mohammed himself killed women and elderly who got in his way. There is a HUGE difference between Mohammed the Prophet and his example and Jesus Christ (Messiah for some) and HIS example. Jesus led a blameless life. NO WHERE will you find Jesus advocating any kind of war or strife or struggle. NOSIR. in EVERY instance, Jesus advocates turning the other cheek, rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and ultimately, dying to redeem the sins of the world. The entire message of the New Testament is that the old eye for an eye mentality is finished. The new message is to Love your neighbor. HUGE difference from a religion that condones conversion by force.

And another thing: I am most assuredly NOT PC here. My firm belief is that these radicals are the new face of Islam because the Moderates, in their refusal to do anything about the atrocities commited have abdicated their responsibility. Only another Muslim can reason with these radicals, they sure as HELL are NOT going to listen to Westerners. The only way this will stop is if some brave Muslim leader emerges who exposes the radicals as the monsters they are, and puts a STOP to the funding........until that time, we are all in for more ugliness.

[EnchantedSLN]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Didnt anyone read my original links?

I did, and I still think some of your comments are terribly ignorant.

Here are a few more links.

http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://www.al-islam.com/eEvent.asp#1
http://www.mpfweb.org/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ter...sm_verses1.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

There ARE prominent figures in the Muslim community speaking out against terrorism. Should there be more? Yes. This still does not validify sweeping generalizations about all Muslims or make Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorist activities responsible for them.

[irishgrl]

Muslims who stand by and do nothing are just as culpable as Muslims who engage in terrorism. Because by their silence the Moderates are by extension condoning such activities. You dont have to agree with me. It makes no difference, BUT: the terrorism will continue until the Moderates take a stand, and Until they do, I hold ALL of them responsible. And: I am not ignorant. I am just fed up. I have seen DECADES of this sort of thing, unlike you. I am at least 20 yrs older than you so I know that silence is one of the biggest accomodators of this sort of crap. If you say nothing, the garbage goes on, and gets worse. Also: this is more of the same sort of agitation that Muslims have engaged in (tho in a less effective scale) for centuries. Please dont expect me to show any consideration for this group. At least Christians have the ability to recognize their past evils such as the Inquisition, and the Salem Witch hunts and even to some extent the Crusades....

I have no problem being the ONLY person on this board who feels this way (or the only one with the GUTS to say so) I think what the Muslim Radicals are doing around the World STINKS. From Chechneya to Bosnia to Phillipines to Iraq, to Iran to Palestine, to NY City, to Israel, and on and on and on.
Go ahead and try to sugar coat it. the fact remains, the worlds HOT SPOTs are occupied by Muslims who refuse to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, or accept the fact that the World has evolved beyond the Golden Age of the Ottoman Empire.

[Sorcerer386]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

In every case I mentioned, the Muslims were the interlopers. They came to an area, occupied it, grew in numbers, and then agitated for statehood, or independence. The Muslims are incapable of living peaceably with their neighbors anywhere because they see any non-Muslims as infidels, and have no compunction about killing them. in fact, some even think they are racking up good points for their afterlife by styling what they are doing a holy war.

My goodness, this sounds so familiar...I wonder where I've heard it before. Wait, isn't that how our great nation was founded? Yes yes, Christianity doesn't have the purist history record either. In fact, I do believe I remember it was the Christian church that originally said in the Crusades that anyone dying in battle will immediately go to Heaven. By the way, I'm not a Muslim.

And people wonder why I am so against religion in schools. Just look at what one discussion has done here...