Farenheit 9/11 debuts June 25th

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Lux

Well this is a propagation of a piece of information advocating the maker's view. With that in mind though, it's about time, seeing that the media is basically a piece of propaganda for the 'goodies' in the US government. So I'm more inclined to believe Moore than the White House, but still, it's the opinion of a certain sector. As a film student, I can tell you that media can be slightly manipulated, resulting in drastic differences (ie. the Australian government's special cut of the chidren overboard video), but that it works both ways. In this instance though, I can't criticise because the outcome is worth the contradiction.

As a film viewer, I have to call you on your warped logic. First, do you know what "hypocritical" means? It means being insincere, to put it simply. In today's world, the term is often used in relation to someone who is critical of another but acts the same way, or worse, as the one he/she is criticizing. With that in mind, I still don't see how Moore qualifies as a "hypocrite," when the object of his criticism is the Bush clan.

As a member of the media myself, I am painfully aware of how easy it is to manipulate media, especially "the media" in its current compliant state.

[dissention]

I just watched the trailer and it looks like it will be a fantastic film. I already bought tickets for it, too.

And I find it incredibly ironic that the film is being distributed by a Canadian movie company.

[strandinthewind]

My main beef with Moore is he is hard to take seriously because he presents his material in a, for want of a better word, satirical way. To me, it is like watching a twisted version of Candid Camera. I am not attacking his content, just his method. He sort of appears like he is pretending to be the "common joe working man" and at the same time to me he appears to be mocking that image. I am unsure if I explained that correctly - hopefully I did. Again, I am not mocking the subject matter.

[CarneVaca]

Satire has always been an effective and important form of protest. If Moore's films were dry dissertations of the topics he tackles, nobody would go see them.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

My main beef with Moore is he is hard to take seriously because he presents his material in a, for want of a better word, satirical way. To me, it is like watching a twisted version of Candid Camera. I am not attacking his content, just his method. He sort of appears like he is pretending to be the "common joe working man" and at the same time to me he appears to be mocking that image. I am unsure if I explained that correctly - hopefully I did. Again, I am not mocking the subject matter.

I don't think so at all. Let's be real for a minute, though: he isn't the richest of guys. He only struck gold with Bowling For Columbine, his other movies, while successful, only netted him a few million which he used to keep funding his stuff. Back when he made "Roger & Me," the project took forever because he kept running out of money. And when he made "The Big One," it got delayed because he didn't have enough steak to pay for the prints. Fahrenheit 9/11 is first film of his to be funded by a corporation, everything else (including his two television shows) were funded out of pocket. That's one of the big draws of Michael Moore; he is the average joe because he's not Mr. Hollywood, he's a man who funds his own projects about the things he's passionate about.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Satire has always been an effective and important form of protest. If Moore's films were dry dissertations of the topics he tackles, nobody would go see them.

Have you seen "The Fog of War"? I bought it last week because I was told how fantastic it was, but it was one of the dullest docs I've ever watched. The outtakes were more entertaining the film itself.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you seen "The Fog of War"? I bought it last week because I was told how fantastic it was, but it was one of the dullest docs I've ever watched. The outtakes were more entertaining the film itself.

Not yet. I plan to rent it. Also, check out "The Trials of Henry Kissinger." It's well done.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Not yet. I plan to rent it. Also, check out "The Trials of Henry Kissinger." It's well done.

I'll have to look into it, I haven't heard much about it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't think so at all. Let's be real for a minute, though: he isn't the richest of guys. He only struck gold with Bowling For Columbine, his other movies, while successful, only netted him a few million which he used to keep funding his stuff. Back when he made "Roger & Me," the project took forever because he kept running out of money. And when he made "The Big One," it got delayed because he didn't have enough steak to pay for the prints. Fahrenheit 9/11 is first film of his to be funded by a corporation, everything else (including his two television shows) were funded out of pocket. That's one of the big draws of Michael Moore; he is the average joe because he's not Mr. Hollywood, he's a man who funds his own projects about the things he's passionate about.

I know - I am not talking about that. I am talking about the way he presents himself in the actual footage. I think he seems silly or patronizing at times. Again, I think it is just me and I do not mind his flims or their content even though I do not often ( if ever ) sit through docs. as they bore me to tears. That is actually how I noticed MM's demeanor. At first, I thought it was comical, which was an effective and conscious way to grab and hold the attention. Then, it just got on my nerves because I thought he was looking down at people too much - he sort of pulls their legs a little bit and then goes for the kill, which I did not like - but to each their own

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'll have to look into it, I haven't heard much about it.

Precisely my point. Yet, if it were done as a "Bowling for Columbine," all the parasites and apologists would crawl out of the woodwork to tell you that because of the approach, it's not credible.

Yet, if more people had seen it (and read the book) a lot of them would surely have reached the inevitable conclusion that Henry Kissinger is a scum-sucking war criminal.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think he seems silly or patronizing at times. Again, I think it is just me ... he sort of pulls their legs a little bit and then goes for the kill, which I did not like - but to each their own

Dude, you're too southern. Up here we revel in that kind of thing.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Lux

Damn it. I love Moore's films, don't make me sound like I'm against him!

You called him a hypocrite. I didn't put any words in your mouth.

Your illustration of how he manipulates his audience is a good point. However, you still haven't proven that he's a hypocrite. Perhaps you should just take it back.

When watching his films, his approach is very clear. He does ambush unsuspecting people and dresses them down. Most deserve it, and some don't. You mention the cop example, which I believe comes from "The Awful Truth." Well, was it an unfair approach? Sure. But was he hiding his methods, was he somehow trying to pass it off as some noble tactic? No and no.

See? What you see is what you get.

How does that compare to a corporate media with a hidden agenda? Do you think Moore has a hidden agenda? How does it compare to Murdoch's cynical propaganda-as-information strategy to serve his own greedy corporate interests? As far as I can tell, with Moore it's all out in the open. And isn't that refreshing? You know exactly what he's doing, how he's doing it and why he is doing it. Can you say that about your average anchor person, talking head or talk show host?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Yet, if more people had seen it (and read the book) a lot of them would surely have reached the inevitable conclusion that Henry Kissinger is a scum-sucking war criminal.

That's nothing new, babe.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

I just watched the trailer and it looks like it will be a fantastic film. I already bought tickets for it, too.

And I find it incredibly ironic that the film is being distributed by a Canadian movie company.

It's going to be incredible. Watched the trailer last night. I got goosebumps. Also, did you watch Clinton's speech last night on CSPAN? It was two plus hours of articulate, thoughtful and uplifting talk about the state of things today. He never once glanced at a note. When it was over I flipped directly (not on purpose) to a clip of Bush's monosylabic, stuttering, smirking, rehearsed, lie filled press conference about Tenet. What a let down.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I know - I am not talking about that. I am talking about the way he presents himself in the actual footage.

That's the point.