Giuliani 08

[dissention]

Originally Posted by ragandbone

As far as helping families below the poverty line, if we don't have welfare, then we need to insure there are jobs that pay a living wage, and that there are affordable options for childcare. I don't know how you do that, but I do know that there are CEOs and shareholders raking in bucks and nothing is enough for them. They (corporations) have lobbyists galore, and politicians in their pockets and are accountable to noone.

Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich? It's shocking on so many levels that people out there work their asses off, even holding two or three jobs, and have to live out of their ****ing cars because the money they make is not enough to support them in terms of housing, utility bills, and food. It's reprehensible.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Almost as f*cked up as not being able to say the pledge in public schools...

You are such a silly boy.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree, but I am unusure even with a proletarian revolution how it could work. History demonstrates similar revolutions result in that great idea being bastardized into another version of capitalism or a dictatorship. I mean I can think of no successful implementation of anything approaching social democracy, esp. in countries that tried to implement communism, which is similar to social democracy in that true communism wants everyone to have the same basic things.

Communism would be preferable to the bastardized version of democracy infected by evil capitalism that we currently have going.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich? It's shocking on so many levels that people out there work their asses off, even holding two or three jobs, and have to live out of their ****ing cars because the money they make is not enough to support them in terms of housing, utility bills, and food. It's reprehensible.

Honey - I have seen it. Again, those kids in NOLA - the only reason their parents, who made about $600 or so a month after taxes had a roof over their heads was because the state helped them out and private charities, like the one I was involved with, had after school stuff that enabled them to have that second job. Also, many who made only a comparatively little more than that could lose that public assistance because they made too much money to qualify for the assistance. So, if you made, say $1,000 a month before tax, you would lose a $500 a month benefit, which placed you behind the person making only $600 a month. It greatly sickened me.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, they are allowed to have those things.

Also, when you look at it as a percentage of their wealth, it is no different that one of us lower income people having a nice house.

But and again, I do not want anyone telling me what I need or how to spend the money I have - do you? Because I am sure that many of the people living in boxes would suggest most of things you and I have are unnecessary and we do not need them, which I am sure would result in a loud "piss off" from both of us though they are calling a spade a spade as well

And, this is not a slam on you or anyone else. It is just me being puzzled at people wanting to project their ideas of what people ought to have onto others and then refusing (in general) to have that same light on them because they do not have a billion dollars - somehow making a good salary that enabled only comparatively moderate luxuries is okay.

I have never had an issue with whether or not people are luxurious and extravagant- of course they are allowed to spend their money however they choose. My point is that those people should never entertain the notion that they are somehow not greedy, because that is a load of crap. I mean, that whole Hermes/Oprah thing was a perfect example of how ridiculous this whole money thing has gotten. Her perspective is totally out of whack. Of course, it's easy for her to go see the poor and downtrodden in NOLA with no makeup on when the story is the headline. Then she heads home to her million dollar homes and sleeps on thousand dollar sheets while those with nothing go on just as they were before. I appreciate her gesture, but she shouldn't attempt to take any kind of "generosity credit" for anything because it would be disingenous.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Communism would be preferable to the bastardized version of democracy infected by evil capitalism that we currently have going.

In its true form maybe, but my point was the versions the USSR and China had were certainly not any better than what we have now For example, in those systems, many are still way better off than most.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by The Tower

I have never had an issue with whether or not people are luxurious and extravagant- of course they are allowed to spend their money however they choose . . . .

Then we agree

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich? It's shocking on so many levels that people out there work their asses off, even holding two or three jobs, and have to live out of their ****ing cars because the money they make is not enough to support them in terms of housing, utility bills, and food. It's reprehensible.

That book exposes so many horrors of our system -- quite an important read. I hear she has a new book coming out as well.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Honey - I have seen it.

Thank the stars for that, because anyone with a grasp on reality has to see it firsthand. That's why I told our favorite village idiot to go volunteer in a welfare office. It's one thing to blab about it in the comfort of your own home, but to actually go out and witness it is a different experience altogether, or to live it like some of us have. We used to live in some sluuuuuuuuuums when I was growing up, honey, and my mother was no Welfare Queen.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Again, those kids in NOLA - the only reason their parents, who made about $600 or so a month after taxes had a roof over their heads was because the state helped them out and private charities, like the one I was involved with, had after school stuff that enabled them to have that second job. Also, many who made only a comparatively little more than that could lose that public assistance because they made too much money to qualify for the assistance. So, if you made, say $1,000 a month before tax, you would lose a $500 a month benefit, which placed you behind the person making only $600 a month. It greatly sickened me.

A little piece of you
The little piece in me
Will die
For this is not America

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

That book exposes so many horrors of our system -- quite an important read. I hear she has a new book coming out as well.

Yes, "Bait and Switch: The (Futile) Pursuit of the American Dream." Don't pay attention to the reviews, though, they roundly condemn her for being a socialist. It's just as good as "Nickel and Dimed," imo.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by sparky

The cycle....I think it is generally sociological. It is related to depression, as trite as that sounds, and a mindset that encourages drug use, alcoholism, and hopelessness.

Hopelessness. The is the key right there. Sadly, there are a huge number of Americans who are feeling hopeless right now. That is why every day, with every little bad thing that happens to this administration, I hope it is the begining of the end for them. I have high hopes that indictments are coming at the end of this month. It's got to stop. Say what you will about Clinton but at least he gave us hope. Hell, the man was from Hope.
Jesus, I'm getting verklempt typing this.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

I agree all the way, babe. Unfortunately, I think it's an unrealistic goal without some form of proletarian revolution.

If gas hits $5 a gallon, we might just see it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

If gas hits $5 a gallon, we might just see it.

But the larger question is, even if that revolution happens, what will prevent the people revolting against the revolting people ( ) from implementing essentially and after a period of time the same type of system currently in place. History demonstrates that that is generally what happens in application despite any theory espoused at the beginning a la communism and the creation of the USSR and Red China, where even mostly from the beginning the newer haves had waaaay more than essentially the same old have nots despite the guise of everyone is equal, etc.

I think the better solution is to work for change in the current system, which greatly needs to be fixed though I have no clue regarding how to achieve that goal and not violate the Const.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich? It's shocking on so many levels that people out there work their asses off, even holding two or three jobs, and have to live out of their ****ing cars because the money they make is not enough to support them in terms of housing, utility bills, and food. It's reprehensible.

I shall get my butt out and buy this book. If someone called it socialist, I suspect it has a bunch of great ideas that are impossible to implement when factoring in human nature. Fantasy land stuff about no one being greedy and all that.

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Say what you will about Clinton but at least he gave us hope.

I think regardless of his idiotic handling of his marrriage and sex drive, he was able to inspire people since he essentially came from nothing. He also had a way of speaking that made people at least believe he gave a damn. For the record, I think he actually did.

Originally Posted by TheTower

My point is that those people should never entertain the notion that they are somehow not greedy, because that is a load of crap

I have to agree with Strand that this is simply a matter of degrees. Of course they look piggy to most everyone. You and I look piggy to a large percentage of the people on earth. Hell, we are. Are Bill Gates and Oprah selfless and worthy of sainthood ? Nah. But no one forces them to give that much to charity, and many with their wealth don't do nearly as much....

[ragandbone]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed"It's shocking on so many levels that people out there work their asses off, even holding two or three jobs, and have to live out of their ****ing cars because the money they make is not enough to support them in terms of housing, utility bills, and food.

I have read it. I am really glad she wrote that book, and that it has done so well. I worked as a waitress for 14 years (started in college) , and I have even cleaned houses to get by, so her descriptions of her experience were very vivid for me. Fortunately, I did not have a child to raise, and managed to move out of the service sector. I know it is hard for many people to imagine what it would be like to work like crazy, and still not make it.

story
Last year I took my car in for repairs, and decied to take the bus with my son into town. I thought it would be fun - we'd go shopping. We got on the bus, and the driver told me I would have to take my son out of the stroller, and fold it down. So there we were: a wiggling toddler, two bags of groceries (from under the stroller) and a mom trying to collapse the stroller, hold the kid, pay the driver, and get it all to the back of the bus. I had never thought of how difficult it would be for a mother to ride a bus with her child. Never considered it. Mothers do this with multiple children, and they take their kids to day care, and they do it every day. I have empathy for them now, but I didn't before...And yet I still have done anything to help change things.

How do we encourage empathy and understanding, and then enable people to act when they see circumstances that need to change?