Terri Schiavo: Please explain something to me...

[irishgrl]

for some interesting insight into the timeline of the relationships of all parties concerned, as well as the seeds of the motivations involved see:
Fight over $$ as much as principle

for an article on the early years see:
An unstudied life:

and for an article on how the fundies are exploiting this issue:
Deathbed Dollars NOTE: Be VERY AFRAID: the fundies are SO CLOSE to taking over this country and imposing their narrow minded view of society on ALL of us.
can feudalism be far behind?

by the way, Ive seen people vilify Felos' actions/motivations but when Jay Wolfson explains it, Felos doesnt seem so far off the beam:
OLBERMANN: Ultimately, when you were involved in this case, what were your recommendations to Governor Bush and would you give the same recommendations under these circumstances today?

WOLFSON: My recommendations were that additional swallowing tests and neurological tests should be performed for the purpose of resolving the dispute between the parties. Because the legal process and the medical process, I felt, had been competent and had met the standards of proof. But only if the parties agreed in advance as to how the results of those tests could be used.

If you'll look at my final report, we had a draft agreement. And we almost got there. At 11:50 p.m. on the 30th of November, Sunday night, before my report was due on the first, all of us were pretty much agreeing to walk into that room and talk about how we would do that.

Mr. Felos called me at 11:50, Michael's attorney. And he said, "Jay, I can't do it. I can't do it, because I'm challenging the law that appointed you, the constitutionality of it. And if I accept anything that you're proposing, then I am diluting my legal and constitutional challenge. I can't."

He was right in doing that legally. And as you know, the law was deemed unconstitutional and then everything I did was technically moot.
based on that commentary, I cant agree that Felos acted irrationally on this issue. And, as it happened, he was vindicated by the courts. So.

[strandinthewind]

Interstingly, I have been in China since 3/20 and this story has made the front page of the news everyday - go figure.

I think this case is a horrible fact pattern. I see where the parents are coming from and would probably do the same for my kid if I thought the surviving spouse was a cad. I just think that the "sanctity" of marriage that the VAST majority of America believes in dictates that the husband chooses, which he did here and was able to substantiate that choice with Terri's desire by showing other people heard her say she never wanted to live like this.

Here is an interesting site debunking many of the myths in this case.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/2005_03_19.htm

Most telling from that site is the following quote:ABC News has obtained talking points circulated among Republican senators explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them: "This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited..." and "This is a great political issue... this is a tough issue for Democrats."

Thus, I conclude, the far right knows damn good and well that the Florida Court's correctly determined this case and, instead of repecting this woman's right to choose not to live this way, they are using her as a political pawn. That is just sick.

[heyjupiter678]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._hospice_chaos

Protests Outside Schiavo Hospice Chaotic

Sat Mar 26, 7:57 AM ET

By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there — one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.

When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.

The delays lasted three to four minutes — the last of her grandfather's life.

"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."

Woodside Hospice has 70 patients besides Schiavo, whose parents are desperately trying to have her feeding tube reconnected. Dozens of protesters have arrived from across the nation since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.

Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.

"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.

Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.

"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer.'"

Most protesters direct their signs and their chants against the courts and Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, who insists she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

But walking through a hostile environment can only add stress to what's already an emotionally draining situation.

"It probably has the same psychological effect on the residents' families as it does on someone who is walking into an abortion clinic and facing signs and aggressive behavior," said Elizabeth Foley, a Florida International University law professor who specializes in bioethics.

Over the past few days, as Schiavo's parents' attempts to have their daughter's feeding tube reinserted repeatedly failed, signs outside the hospice have grown more desperate. Doctors have said Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the feeding tube being removed.

Messages compare Michael Schiavo to Scott Peterson, convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in California, and John Evander Couey, who allegedly murdered a 9-year-old girl in Homosassa.

One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"

Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor — intended to rattle Michael Schiavo — rattles their patience.

"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.

Police and hospice officials say they are trying to minimize the intrusion on hospice residents and their families, and that the security measures are meant to protect the privacy and safety of all residents, not just Schiavo.

But Johnson, 24, said her 73-year-old grandfather, Thomas Bone, was restricted from moving freely around the hospice grounds during his final days. He died just hours after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed and protests intensified.

"They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming — and it's not fair," Johnson said.

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This has turned into such a circus.

[Dreammms]

Originally Posted by wondergirl9847

Will people just stay out of this?! This is between her husband and parents. Sheebus. I don't see how her parents are even involved in any decision making as she is over 18 AND married. Good gravy.

I think the whole point though is that there is NO proof at all that this is Terri's wish.

[wondergirl9847]

I understand the us versus them mentality of her husband and parents, but what I'm talking about are the celebrities and dumba$$es clogging up the hospital (just read that article heyjupiter posted. ) and everybody needs to mind their damn business. It's between the husband and parents...but IMO, it's the husband's final decision because she's over 18 and married. Case closed if you ask me, but nobody did, so whatevah.

[WelshWitchPMD]

Originally Posted by Dreammms

I think the whole point though is that there is NO proof at all that this is Terri's wish.

Exactly. If it is not in writing or on tape then anybody can say anything that they want.
I just hope that she finds peace in the after life. Her husband and family will have to face their karma in the end also.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Dreammms

I think the whole point though is that there is NO proof at all that this is Terri's wish.

according to testimony, Terri said after Michael's grandmother's funeral that she didnt wish to be artificially kept alive, that when it was her turn to go, to just let her go. She said this several times to various people including Michael's family members and friends. The fact that it wasnt written down is unfortunate, but the Court found that there was more evidence than not. Michael had the burden of proving that Terri DID say she didnt want artificial help. He did. You may not agree, but thats neither here nor there. As for his Karma, I agree that he has to answer for his actions in this life when he meets his maker or reviews his life, but having said that, everything I have seen speaks to me of a man who is truly trying to honor his wife's wishes. He's remained staunch in the face of overwhelming odds and as I said before, he must be drawing upon some MAJOR inner strength. He has acted consistently. His early care of Terri has been without blemish (He was even more obsessed with her care than the care homes were!) His road is not an easy one, and I wouldnt be in his shoes for anything. Similarly, I sympathize with Terri's parents, I cant even begin to imagine the heartache. They gave it their best shot and they acted according to their beliefs as well.

in the end, a very sad saga all around.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Dreammms

I think the whole point though is that there is NO proof at all that this is Terri's wish.

That is a factually incorrect statement. The trial court judge based his decision on proof and that decision has been upheld many times by many courts. Interestingly, though I have not reqd the trial transcript, I do not think her parents presented any proof that she wanted to live other than those videos which, though heartbreaking to watch because although there but for the Grace of God go I, all qualified medical experts conclude the expressions she makes do not indicate anything other than q persistent veg. state; i.e. she is unaware of anything and the tiny fraction of her brain that is left is her is operating her basic life support systems which reaquire no conscious effort.

In the end, no malfeasance on the part of the husband has been demonstrated other than in false innuendo. Thus, Florida law dictates that he has the final say. Regardless, it still makes great fodder for the R party to use to feed the anti-liberal movement seen of late. Thus, therein is the political interest.

Finally, I read where her husaqnd was offered a million dollars by a private party and the ability to keep any remaining money currently used to care for her if he relinquished his rights to the parents. He declined. That to me suggests his interests are not pecuniary as suggested

[ShangriLaTroubl]

No there IS NO PROOF that her wish to was to die..yes the courts have determined that this was her wish, based on testimony..but I think it's pretty well known that there is no proof, IE: video, living will, whatever of her saying that she wouldn't want to live this way..

Just because the courts believe Michael Schiavo, does not mean there is PROOF she said anything of the sort..it's just taking his word for it

Chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

make a living will everyone!!

chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

How can some neurologists claim that she is not in a PVS if she is ? It makes no sense. This seems like a diagnosis that could not be argued. How hard is it to tell? Seems like to me they could just hook her brain up to something, and be able to tell..
I guess we will never know on some of these things...I just think maybe they should have left the tube in long enough for some last investigations , and said OK HEY , we are going to make sure 100% of these things that need to be investigated first...and we arent going to take 15 yrs..we are gonna do it NOW.. There's too many discrepencies to make this 100% certain.

Chris

[Dreammms]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

No there IS NO PROOF that her wish to was to die..yes the courts have determined that this was her wish, based on testimony..but I think it's pretty well known that there is no proof, IE: video, living will, whatever of her saying that she wouldn't want to live this way..

Just because the courts believe Michael Schiavo, does not mean there is PROOF she said anything of the sort..it's just taking his word for it

Chris

I totally agree with this.

This whole thing just really bothers me. I feel so bad for Terri.

There's so many conflicting stories in this case, that's the problems.

Some DR's say she is PVS and others say minimal conscious state.

Some nurses say Michael would come in and say "is that bitch dead yet"
Some nurses say he was the most caring person for his wife.

There is also the fact of the broken bones. Others says that Michael had access to insulin. Others say it's fishy that he wants her cremated right away.

[GypsySorcerer]

I feel that neither Michael Schiavo nor the Schindlers are really putting Terri first. It is a competition between them; a power struggle.


Most seem to agree that she isn't feeling anything. I hope this is true. I can't imagine knowing that you're in the middle of a power struggle between your husband and parents and are being used as a political pawn.

[Dreammms]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

That is a factually incorrect statement. The trial court judge based his decision on proof and that decision has been upheld many times by many courts.

What proof is there? The judge is just going by what Michael says Terri said.

Haven't you guys ever said " I rather be dead than be like that"? How can you take a statement like that and turn that into what I want to be done god forbid I am in that situation?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

No there IS NO PROOF that her wish to was to die..yes the courts have determined that this was her wish, based on testimony..but I think it's pretty well known that there is no proof, IE: video, living will, whatever of her saying that she wouldn't want to live this way..

Just because the courts believe Michael Schiavo, does not mean there is PROOF she said anything of the sort..it's just taking his word for it

Chris

A direct statement from her in writing is not the only form of proof there is. I was coming at it from a legal perspective and from there, proof was given. Legally, that proof is/was all that was required regardless of whether I agree with the law or the outcome of this case. And - though I do not have the transcript in front of me, other people testified she expressed to them that she did not want to live this way So, I think implying (which I think people have done) the husband made this up and the courts erroneously bought that sole statement is inaccurate Moreover, even if it was based solely on the husband's statement, the court found no credible evidence of malfeasance on his part though many unsupported allegations were proffered