Brokeback Mountain Review and Response

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Despite our differences, that comment was over the line and uncalled for- which I am sorry for having said. Brian, I hope you will accept my apology and we can just move on.

To be honest, I was surprised by the level of vitriol in your response. It seemed rather disproportionate to what I had said... which wasn't intended as an indictment of anyone here, and I wasn't referring to anyone here as a "bitter old queen" or "used-up former club-kid." I was saying that we are examples of making your own way and doing your own thing, in the face of all of the labeling and pigeon-holing that gay men face, and I was trying to think of a possible way to change the things sparky was describing (young gay men having unprotected sex, becoming addicted to meth, etc.).
So I do think it's important to try to be good examples for the younger guys. Maybe that's my "older brother syndrome"... since I was always told, "your little brother looks up to you, so you better be a good example for him."

But I guess in my desire to word my posts as intelligently as I can manage (which requires some work, lemme tell ya!), I end up coming off pompous and insincere... which is the exact opposite of my intentions. That's something I should work on.

I gladly accept your apology and I'm happy to put this behind us.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

I agree this is a primary takeaway lesson from the movie, along with the message of how society's treatment of homosexuality can keep people from living and loving fully and honestly, while ruining lives in the process. I think this still goes on quite a bit today.

Boy does it.

In some ways, the movie is a negative portrayal. Beyond living a lie, Ennis humiliated his wife in and out of bed, and almost beat the crap out of her in her own house. Those with open minds will be able to understand the context in which all of this happened (although I have trouble with the near violence scene regardless of context).

Though I am not a big fan of violence, I did not think the movie was a negative portrayal of the main characters. For one, this movie is based almost solely on source material. The main characters are dirt poor, uneducated men of the desolate West in the middle twentieth century. They are neither right nor wrong. They simply are. The short story is even used as a template for the bulk of the script. Scene descriptions use direct quotes and so does the dialogue. And the story was written by someone who many consider be one the finest living writers, Annie Proulx, and adapted for the screen by someone with a similar reputation, Larry McMurtry. So, the film makers had no political agenda, and for my money, the story doesn't exist for the characters to be judged.

I do not see that film as any type of positive role model because they lived a lie.

I am not so sure how I feel about all of this role model business being applied to the film. I just don't think that is what this movie is about or what it was for. If one must take away real lessons from a piece of art, this one offers many.

First off - don't lie about your identity or what you need. Granted, their lie was situational, and this is a period piece, but tell that to all the people still lying today. There are a staggering number of them. Also, we need to think about what it is we need, and who we are. It is not a new idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but one of these characters in particular did not do this at all. He was not able to, for many reasons. If he had, I guess we wouldn't have the tragedy or what I consider to be probably the greatest love story I have ever seen committed to film.

These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

There is a scene in the movie, after Jack and Ennis have a nasty fight, when they spew out everything they have been holding back for twenty years. It is crushing. However, they seem to come back to a kind of peace before parting ways. It is at that moment that Jack relives a moment from their first summer together. He is standing and nearly asleep by the fire. Ennis comes up behind him, embraces him, and begins to sing lightly in his ear. It is a song Ennis has pulled up in his mind from the past, one his mother used to sing to him when he was little. Jack drifts back to the present and this is the stage direction from the script :

"WE ARE BACK TO THE PRESENT as JACK, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Of this scene, I read a review which said, and I paraphrase, that sometimes we experience a flash of love so bright that it is able to illuminate a lifetime of loneliness.

I find that I cannot judge these characters or their actions. I do not for a second believe that was the intent of the author or the filmmakers. I am quite frankly so moved by the film, and this scene in particular, that it crystallizes in stark relief for me one message and one message only. If you are lucky enough, you may one day experience that fleeting flash of love. One that is so bright it can illuminate what seems like, or could be, a lifetime of loneliness. If you do, you must catch it, you must save it, and you must protect it with every ounce of strength you have, for you may never have the chance again.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sparky

I am not so sure how I feel about all of this role model business being applied to the film. I just don't think that is what this movie is about or what it was for. If one must take away real lessons from a piece of art, this one offers many.

I don't quite understand the assertion that this movie should be looked at as some sort of "role model" to begin with. It's about a certain period in time and involves characters who live their lives based on how those times dictated they should. This wasn't a movie that was made with the intent of gay people watching it and being influenced into living "lies" about who they are and who they might love. If anything, the movie demonstrates just how destructive and self-defeating doing so can be.

First off - don't lie about your identity or what you need. Granted, their lie was situational, and this is a period piece, but tell that to all the people still lying today. There are a staggering number of them. Also, we need to think about what it is we need, and who we are. It is not a new idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but one of these characters in particular did not do this at all. He was not able to, for many reasons. If he had, I guess we wouldn't have the tragedy or what I consider to be probably the greatest love story I have ever seen committed to film.

These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

There is a scene in the movie, after Jack and Ennis have a nasty fight, when they spew out everything they have been holding back for twenty years. It is crushing. However, they seem to come back to a kind of peace before parting ways. It is at that moment that Jack relives a moment from their first summer together. He is standing and nearly asleep by the fire. Ennis comes up behind him, embraces him, and begins to sing lightly in his ear. It is a song Ennis has pulled up in his mind from the past, one his mother used to sing to him when he was little. Jack drifts back to the present and this is the stage direction from the script :

"WE ARE BACK TO THE PRESENT as JACK, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Of this scene, I read a review which said, and I paraphrase, that sometimes we experience a flash of love so bright that it is able to illuminate a lifetime of loneliness.

I find that I cannot judge these characters or their actions. I do not for a second believe that was the intent of the author or the filmmakers. I am quite frankly so moved by the film, and this scene in particular, that it crystallizes in stark relief for me one message and one message only. If you are lucky enough, you may one day experience that fleeting flash of love. One that is so bright it can illuminate what seems like, or could be, a lifetime of loneliness. If you do, you must catch it, you must save it, and you must protect it with every ounce of strength you have, for you may never have the chance again.

Poetry. You already know I adore you, but damn. That's pretty much what I came away with after seeing it, not "Man, those poor queers lived a lie, what a bad message." It's not about any of that surface stuff as much as it's about love. It demonstrated in the most human way that love is such a powerful thing that it can ruin you one moment and then make your life worth living the next, even after all the **** you may have went through for those brief moments of bliss where nothing else mattered. It made it painfully obvious that once you find a love as powerful as the one you described above, you have to take hold of it or else. You lose, that's it. The movie can even be seen as a cautionary tale about how not grasping onto the love that's in front of you and holding onto it as tightly as possible can wreak havoc on you emotionally for the rest of time.

[markolas]

I certainly don't think these guys were meant to be role models, nor do I think anyone can vilify them for "living a lie." I think one of the main things I got from the movie was that everything isn't as black and white as people like to think it is. They were dealing with the situation the way they had been conditioned to deal with it, by their environment and their upbringing. Like sparky said, they aren't right or wrong.

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. I've certainly never experienced it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by markolas

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. I've certainly never experienced it.

Believe, miracles can happen...
Just imagine, and believe
Open up your heart...
The journey starts when you believe...

[markolas]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Believe, miracles can happen...
Just imagine, and believe
Open up your heart...
The journey starts when you believe...

Okay, I have no idea what that's from, but...

I believed until I realized that no one I've ever been intensely attracted to has ever returned the feeling. Basically, I make them soft.

[SapphireSister]

My review SPOILER








I finally saw it this weekend BY MYSELF since the people I kept making plans with to see it flaked on me. I do prefer to go to the movies with other people because I love to discuss it after but if I really want to see something and can't find anybody I don't have a problem going alone.

My initial thoughts are that is was not the masterpiece that I had hoped, however it was one of the best films I've seen in quite a while. I kept describing this film as "the gay cowboy movie" but after seeing it I'd prefer to describe it as a love story and leave the gay part out. I must comment Ang Lee - his direction was impeccable. The cinematography was also amazing! I need to get out of the city more! Heath Ledger was by far the star. I could feel his loneliness and desperation and I will never look at him the same again. The way he was able to convey emotion without saying a world was spectacular! He seriously deserves an Oscar. Any my God is he sexy! Michelle Williams, also amazing. How did she have the strength to stay with him for all those years after seeing the kiss? Must have been terribly painful. I love the way she finally brought it up to him on Thanksgiving with the fishing pole bit. Brilliant! Wasn't their daughter Jr. beautiful?

For anyone to say they were living a lie is ignorant. Was it not apparent by the end of the movie this lifestyle was completely unacceptable at that particular place and time? In an ideal world they would have bought a ranch and lived as queens happily ever after but the whole point was THE COULDN'T! I'm so glad this movie has gotten so much publicity and I really hope a lot of straight people see it. If it affects one person's point of view on homosexuality it was worth it. Love is love, no matter if you are gay or straight. I live here in Los Angeles where it's totally acceptable to be gay and I surround myself with people who feel the same but I know in other parts of the country it is still frowned upon. I hope it reaches these people. Am I silly to think a movie can change people's minds and question what they have been taught to think is wrong all their lives? I truly hope not.

I usually cry at movies, especially love stories or anything involving death but I did not shed a tear and I can't explain why. I'm really shocked. I would have expected tears but oh well. As I said I wasn't quite as moved as I thought I would be. As sad as it was that they could not fulfill their lives together they are still lucky to have ever had a love like that at all. "It is better to have love and lost than to not have loved at all". Would you say most people ever experience a love that intense?

It did put me in the mood to put on a cowboy hat and go to a western bar and do some 2-stepping. Who's in?

[DavidMn]

My attitude as a gay man is pretty simple. I refuse to try to fit into a set of labels and refuse to try tro be anyone but myself. Security in ones own being is everything.

[Rickypt]

POSSIBLE SPOILING

Originally Posted by sparky

These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

Beautifully written, sparky. I agree that this is a key lesson of the movie (and one I believe in). What complicates it a bit for me is that maybe that's the same kind of love Alma had for Ennis.

I just have trouble that all the focus is on Ennis and Jack. In the showing I went to, many in audience actually laughed during the scenes where Alma was showing her pain, as if they were "rooting" for E & J at her expense. And everyone I've talked to about this movie (not necessarily on this board) just talks about how badly they feel for the two guys.

I think there was heartbreak all around, and I think Alma suffered the consequences of the era as much as they did.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by markolas

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. I've certainly never experienced it.

I've had 2 long term relationships, 6 years + and lived with 2 more guys for about a year each.I've never had the that intense 'flash of love' either but in all but one of the cases (one of the 1 year things)I'm glad I had these relationships .The problem with way too many gay men is that they are waiting around for prince charming to come and never have anything that lasts more than a few months at the most if even that.The reality I think is that prince charming doesn't really exist.That is one thing I'm happy to have learned early on .

[Neal]

Originally Posted by markolas

I believed until I realized that no one I've ever been intensely attracted to has ever returned the feeling. Basically, I make them soft.

Join the club...

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

I just have trouble that all the focus is on Ennis and Jack. In the showing I went to, many in audience actually laughed during the scenes where Alma was showing her pain, as if they were "rooting" for E & J at her expense. And everyone I've talked to about this movie (not necessarily on this board) just talks about how badly they feel for the two guys.

I think there was heartbreak all around, and I think Alma suffered the consequences of the era as much as they did.

Thank you! I saw BBM again this weekend, and just like the first time, the entire theatre erupted with laughter when poor Alma came to the door to find Ennis and Jack kissing at the bottom of the stairs. Just like the first time, I was appalled.

I fail to see the humor in being humiliated and betrayed by someone you love, and think loves you in return.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by Neal

Thank you! I saw BBM again this weekend, and just like the first time, the entire theatre erupted with laughter when poor Alma came to the door to find Ennis and Jack kissing at the bottom of the stairs. Just like the first time, I was appalled.

I fail to see the humor in being humiliated and betrayed by someone you love, and think loves you in return.

Wow, I thought it was just a freak experience at my particular showing. My friend and I were horrified.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Wow, I thought it was just a freak experience at my particular showing. My friend and I were horrified.

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS PRETTY MUCH A SPOLIER, FOLKS.


I have read a lot about this happening at a lot of screenings. The most the scene ever elicited at the shows I have watched is a titter and a bunch of gasps. I don't think people are laughing at Alma. The lead up to the scene has been extremely tense. Ennis is chain smoking, drinking, waiting, and when Jack finally shows, it is a crescendo. I think the laughter is more a release of tension on the part of the audience than it is about having no feeling for Alma.

It is no surprise that most of the talk is about the guys, they are the main characters, after all. But Michelle Williams has huge oscar buzz, and has won accolades from tons of critics. The sadness she goes through is enormous. But on the other hand, she does get remarried. Was her love for Ennis trashed and thwarted ? Absolutely. It is side wreckage from main plot line. Which does not lessen it's importance or intensity.
I don't know that Lureen has the same tragic arc. I doubt she relied on Jack so much. Her character had other things to do. But her impeccable phone call scene shows that she is absolutely shattered by the events. In a much different way than anyone else. That performance was masterful.

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. I've certainly never experienced it.

You're certainly joking, as is evidenced by the laughy face. Regardless, one of the amazing things about this film is that it showed love that I absolutely believed. It's the first time in my 30 some years of movie viewing that I saw a film in which two men loved each other and I really bought it. As the reviewer in Entertainment Weekly called it "A film in which it feels almost as if love were being invented."

I certainly agree. And with repeated viewings I have only understood more about the characters and the detailed nuances of the performances have
become clearer. The structure is classic as well. The whole thing is put together like a symphony, with repeated phrasing and plot devices, and thundering crescendos to punctuate the ends of acts. Genius.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by sparky

I certainly agree. And with repeated viewings I have only understood more about the characters and the detailed nuances of the performances have become clearer. The structure is classic as well. The whole thing is put together like a symphony, with repeated phrasing and plot devices, and thundering crescendos to punctuate the ends of acts. Genius.

How many times have you seen the movie???

In the summer of 1978, I went to my local theater every week day and saw the matinee showing of Grease. I must have seen that thing like 50 times. Are you past ten viewings yet with this one?