Giuliani 08

[ragandbone]

I would like to see the end of the corporate welfare state. Bailouts and superfund sites cost taxpayers much more than welfare for the poor.

As far as helping families below the poverty line, if we don't have welfare, then we need to insure there are jobs that pay a living wage, and that there are affordable options for childcare. I don't know how you do that, but I do know that there are CEOs and shareholders raking in bucks and nothing is enough for them. They (corporations) have lobbyists galore, and politicians in their pockets and are accountable to noone.

*note, this is a chicken post, because I actually have to get back to work, and can't respond till much later, but flame away. I apologize if you guys have covered this at length already - I couldn't read all of the posts!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sparky

This would be fascinating. The "letting loose" of the mentally ill is well documented. I would like to know the exact repercussions and some numbers.

Also, what I would like to see is a poll, or some kind of statistics on the homeless themselves. I want to see a detailed questionnaire about how people became homeless, and what it would take to get them out of it.

The arguments about spending are USELESS without knowing how people got where they are. Money, shmoney. Money will not solve the problem of poverty. It never has. Like I posted before, I have known people who were homeless and died homeless. I know why they got there. I think there is a certain percentage of the population that is going to be incurable addicts, and it will never change. What about the rest ? Who the hell are all of these people ? The people I know from my hometown who are on public assistance all have kids from 3 or 4 different men, never got married, never graduated high school, chain smoke, drink cheap beer, and do nothing. And their parents were the same. It seems a cycle...learned, genetic... I don't know. The bickering about money and politics are entertaining, I suppose, but have nothing to do with the problem. And I suspect at least Strand could dig up some statistics on who these people are and how it happened to them. Why wouldn't those in government agencies do the same ? This is not a political debate. It isn't something to argue about. It is about human beings and what happened to them and why they are where they are.That supercedes the money and the politics and everything else. Of course I dump the statistical thing on Strandie, because he is a lawyer and it is his job. And I love him
Sparky don't know nothin' about statistics. I just make pretty sets for y'all to watch on TV and in movies.

Here is a good start:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/pover.../perindex.html

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by sparky

This would be fascinating. The "letting loose" of the mentally ill is well documented. I would like to know the exact repercussions and some numbers.

Also, what I would like to see is a poll, or some kind of statistics on the homeless themselves. I want to see a detailed questionnaire about how people became homeless, and what it would take to get them out of it.

The arguments about spending are USELESS without knowing how people got where they are. Money, shmoney. Money will not solve the problem of poverty. It never has. Like I posted before, I have known people who were homeless and died homeless. I know why they got there. I think there is a certain percentage of the population that is going to be incurable addicts, and it will never change. What about the rest ? Who the hell are all of these people ? The people I know from my hometown who are on public assistance all have kids from 3 or 4 different men, never got married, never graduated high school, chain smoke, drink cheap beer, and do nothing. And their parents were the same. It seems a cycle...learned, genetic... I don't know.

It is most definitely a cycle. That is why education is so important. that is why the middle class is so important. That's why we have to teach them about birth control in the schools. If I remember correctly, girls without a prominent male figure in the home are 3 times more likely to become pregnant out of wedlock than girls who do have a prominent male figure in their lives. Also, consider the cost of day care. How are moms who are making 40k a year before taxes supposed to pay for day care for the little ones while they work to make ends meet? TheEuropean countries have a much stronger focus on quality of life while we seem to have lost that in America for a variety of reasons.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Are you honestly saying no welfare abuse (intended or not) occurs

You know I'm not.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ragandbone

I would like to see the end of the corporate welfare state. Bailouts and superfund sites cost taxpayers much more than welfare for the poor.

As far as helping families below the poverty line, if we don't have welfare, then we need to insure there are jobs that pay a living wage, and that there are affordable options for childcare. I don't know how you do that, but I do know that there are CEOs and shareholders raking in bucks and nothing is enough for them. They (corporations) have lobbyists galore, and politicians in their pockets and are accountable to noone.

Can I get an amen?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

It is most definitely a cycle. That is why education is so important. that is why the middle class is so important. That's why we have to teach them about birth control in the schools. If I remember correctly, girls without a prominent male figure in the home are 3 times more likely to become pregnant out of wedlock than girls who do have a prominent male figure in their lives. Also, consider the cost of day care. How are moms who are making 40k a year before taxes supposed to pay for day care for the little ones while they work to make ends meet? TheEuropean countries have a much stronger focus on quality of life while we seem to have lost that in America for a variety of reasons.

Sadly, the religious right will try and never allow that to happen.

Interestingly, AIDS is killing more poor people than ever ( http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall04/epidemic.htm ) and that is a direct result of the lack of education. A friend works for a local AIDS charity and he cannot mention condon useage when lecturing at a public school. How fu**ed up is that

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

You know I'm not.

Interestingly:

Myth: There are Welfare Queens driving Welfare Cadillacs.

Fact: Reagan made up this story.



Summary

Reagan's story of a Welfare Queen driving a Welfare Cadillac was apocryphal. Even so, there is no evidence that welfare cheating is a significant problem; besides, individual welfare payments are too small for recipients to live well.

Argument

Conservative politicians have a talent for telling memorable anecdotes that capture the essence of their beliefs on any particular issue. One of the most enduring of these came from Ronald Reagan on the subject of welfare. He cited a Chicago "Welfare Queen" who had ripped off $150,000 from the government, using 80 aliases, 30 addresses, a dozen social security cards, and four fictional dead husbands. The country was outraged; Reagan dutifully promised to roll back welfare; and ever since, the "Welfare Queen" driving her "Welfare Cadillac" has become permanently lodged in American political folklore.

Unfortunately, like most great conservative anecdotes, it wasn't really true. The media searched for this welfare cheat in the hopes of interviewing her, and discovered that she didn't even exist.

As a bit of class warfare, however, it was brilliant. It diverted public attention from insider traders in their limousines to Welfare Queens in their Cadillacs, even though the former were stealing thousands of times more from the American people than the latter. Just one example of the cost of white collar crime would become apparent a few years later, when President Bush bailed out the Savings & Loans industry with $500 billion of the taxpayer's money -- enough to fund 20 years of federal AFDC.

Questions of class warfare aside, there is no evidence that there is a significant problem with welfare cheating. In 1991 less than 5 percent of all welfare benefits went to persons who were not entitled to them, and this figure includes errors committed by the welfare agency. (1)

Nor are people getting rich off welfare. The two largest welfare programs are Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and food stamps. In 1992, the average yearly AFDC family payment was $4,572, and food stamps for a family of three averaged $2,469, for a total of $7,041. (2) In that year, the poverty level for a mother with two children was $11,186. (3) Thus, these two programs paid only 63 percent of the poverty level, and 74 percent of a minimum wage job. There are other welfare programs, of course, but they either pay a minuscule fraction of these two programs, or, if larger, are collected by only a small percentage of welfare recipients. The typical welfare recipient remains among the poorest members of society.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarequeen.htm

P.S. the slight to Reagan was an olive branch

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Sadly, the religious right will try and never allow that to happen.

Interestingly, AIDS is killing more poor people than ever ( http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall04/epidemic.htm ) and that is a direct result of the lack of education. A friend works for a local AIDS charity and he cannot mention condon useage when lecturing at a public school. How fu**ed up is that

That is insane and you can thank George for that becuase under Clinton it was allowed.
My daughter goes to a parochial school and they did cover birth control in their health class.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interestingly:

Myth: There are Welfare Queens driving Welfare Cadillacs.

Fact: Reagan made up this story.

I told you.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

That is insane and you can thank George for that becuase under Clinton it was allowed.
My daughter goes to a parochial school and they did cover birth control in their health class.

My friend has to give them his card and then tell them he can be fired/jailed/fined/etc. if he discusses it there. They have to call him when he is off of school property, which sadly, few do.

I was so disgusted when I learned that - I almost puked, esp. in light of the fairly recent stat. that demonstrated something like almost half (I cannot remember the exact number) of GA students will get an STD prior to leaving high school.

On edit - it was Bush that did that if I am not mistaken as I remember when the change took place.

I mean how can you do any meaningful AIDS or other STD education discussing abstinence only - esp. in a group of horny teenagers innundated by sex 24/7.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I told you.

I thought you might like that one

See - I ain't so bad

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Sadly, the religious right will try and never allow that to happen.

Interestingly, AIDS is killing more poor people than ever ( http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall04/epidemic.htm ) and that is a direct result of the lack of education. A friend works for a local AIDS charity and he cannot mention condon useage when lecturing at a public school. How fu**ed up is that

Almost as f*cked up as not being able to say the pledge in public schools...

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Firstly, you aren't going to get a strike...because those in charge agree with you.

Secondly...You did get input from others' ideas about what causes homelessness/poverty/racisim...re-read my post one more time.

Thirdly, one must be able to get people to SEE the obvious before something can be done about it.

I'm going to start using large letters...they are fun!!!

First off, Chris was quite enlightneing, and Strandie posted a great site. More than you offered.

Secondly, I do not believe, as you posted, that a belief in "entitlement" creates poverty. No one has tons of babies and lives in filth because they believe that the government needs to take care of them. No one I ever knew anyway. They did it because they were uneducated and caught in a strange cycle that only sociologists can properly explain.

Capital letters are fun. They allowed me to express my frustration at your absolute idiocy and partisan name calling. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to take a person seriously when they venerate and glorify an idiot like Ann Coulter. A person who essentially is spraying the same kind of "I am right because I am a conservative and you are wrong because you are not"
garbage (that Coulter sprays with abandon) that has produced a political system that is essentially at a standstill. People like her are not idea people, they are provocateurs and most of all celebrities. They rabble rouse and shout loudly not to solve problems, but to create their own cults of personality that will perpetuate their own wealth and notoriety and help no one but themselves and their employees. Your relentless identification with such a charlatan and a phony (the white female Jesse Jackson she is without a doubt) renders and colors everything you say with a patina of disingenuousness that not only makes me want to vomit, it also makes me see everything that is wrong with the current political system in this country.
And the media that feeds on its filth.

Originally Posted by The Tower

Ronald Reagan is/was a complete piece of **** and I'm glad the mother****er is dead in the ground.

Is this what you meant by getting "people's ideas about what causes and contributes to homelessness and poverty?" Because this is that warm kind constructive thinking that leads to solutions.

.

That isn't exactly what I was looking for. Nonetheless, I agree with Towie with every fiber of my being. Reagan heartlessly released all those mentally ill people as a bizarre cost cutting measure, in direct conflict with his dishonest stance on the military, as many of those in the system were the veterans he vowed to protect, and pandered to as part of his Hollywood bulll**** artist campaign. I also agree with this statement because of Reagan's unforgivable ignoring of the nascent AIDS crisis, which he was loath to mention because it affected mostly gay men. Paying attention and speaking of it publicly might have sullied his reputation with the "religious" constituency his campaign courted and manipulated to get him voted into the White House. Countless thousands died because of his attitude. Funding for research came late, and it was up to actors and actresses with balls and souls (thank you Elizabeth Taylor) to get America to wake up to a crisis which has killed millions worldwide. For that, I will never forgive that bastard. For the record, I have spit on his grave. One day soon, I will urinate on it and do a little dance. Perhaps I will invite Towie and we can share an expensive bottle of champagne to commemorate the glorious occasion.

Sorry everyone, for going so far off topic. I just have to go nuts sometimes.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by sparky

I agree with Towie with every fiber of my being.

Well, Ann would probably kill me for this but I am not even going to bother responding to the rest of your post after reading this. I think I made it pretty clear where I stand and where you stand.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by amber

Right in this, you are not addressing what perpetuates the cycle of poverty, and that is...remiss.

The cycle....I think it is generally sociological. It is related to depression, as trite as that sounds, and a mindset that encourages drug use, alcoholism, and hopelessness. The problem of women having babies with losers and not marrying them is confounding and part and parcel of this as well.