A post from "Jesusland"

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

and perculating for a long long time!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, not to high five, but, it is true. And - for whatever reason, people cannot accept it. And - if they do, they then fall back on "Oh what the hell - SH was a bad guy anyway." I will never get it.

It is true. And it also proves that the world did not believe he had WMDs (if you read the UN speeches in that post). I can also post Bush's secret memo that blatantly violates the Vienna Convention:

To: [Recipients withheld]

From: FRANK KOZA, Def Chief of Staff (Regional Targets) CIV/NSA

Sent on Jan 31 2003 0:16

Subject: Reflections of Iraq Debate/Votes at UN-RT Actions + Potential for Related Contributions

Importance: HIGH

Top Secret//COMINT//X1

All,

As you've likely heard by now, the Agency is mounting a surge particularly directed at the UN Security Council (UNSC) members (minus US and GBR of course) for insights as to how to membership is reacting to the on-going debate RE: Iraq, plans to vote on any related resolutions, what related policies/ negotiating positions they may be considering, alliances/ dependencies, etc - the whole gamut of information that could give US policymakers an edge in obtaining results favorable to US goals or to head off surprises. In RT, that means a QRC surge effort to revive/ create efforts against UNSC members Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Bulgaria and Guinea, as well as extra focus on Pakistan UN matters.

We've also asked ALL RT topi's to emphasize and make sure they pay attention to existing non-UNSC member UN-related and domestic comms for anything useful related to the UNSC deliberations/ debates/ votes. We have a lot of special UN-related diplomatic coverage (various UN delegations) from countries not sitting on the UNSC right now that could contribute related perspectives/ insights/ whatever. We recognize that we can't afford to ignore this possible source.

We'd appreciate your support in getting the word to your analysts who might have similar, more in-direct access to valuable information from accesses in your product lines. I suspect that you'll be hearing more along these lines in formal channels - especially as this effort will probably peak (at least for this specific focus) in the middle of next week, following the SecState's presentation to the UNSC.

Thanks for your help.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Osama was still being searched for - it's not as if we've given up on him! But he has proven to be a hard man to find. Believe me, if he were found, he wouldn't be let off the hook.

What a joke. Your president has said that he's not worried about finding Osama and that's quite indicative of the amount of troops looking for him; they're hardly looking for him. It doesn't help that he was given a two month head start and then let go once he was cornered in Tora Bora.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Nancy, don't forget Osama.

Osama endorsed Kerry? That's rich.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Some of us are may appear to be fighting when we really aren't. I think I can safely say that in the case of Strandie, Dissention and myself. In fact, there are times when I think we relish arguing with each other.
That said, I wasn't referring to you with my comments but thank you for your well thought out post.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Mark, I completely understand your anger, but I don't think the conservatives here are representative of those who'd just as soon spit on us as look at us.

Have you read some of the old posts from conservatives on this board who don't want gay marriage or gay people? Some of the ones posted back when The Passion came out were vile.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Yes, Saddam is a horrible, evil man whose government tortured and killed tens of thousands.

However......

That is still not a reason for the US to unilaterally invade the sovereign nation that was Iraq. There are many, many, many governments on Earth today that are as bad as Saddam was if not worse. Myanmar, North Korea, the Sudan, Congo, Rwanda- not to mention Paraguay, Turkmenistan, Iran, Syria, Liberia, Nigeria, Tunisia, etc., etc., etc.... When are we going to invade those countries and fix their problems? I can tell you when- never, because none of them have the world's second largest oil reserves and a dictator who tangled with Dubya's Poppy.

What I want to know is since when did the United States of America decide to become the official police unit of the United Nations of Earth?

Since a plan called "Project for the New American Century" was concocted. Check it out, it is quite chilling http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1665.htm

[amber]

Thanks, Suze. That was pretty gross, all right...
A small excerpt:

"Vice President Dick Cheney is a founding member of PNAC, along with Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is the ideological father of the
group. Bruce Jackson, a PNAC director, served as a Pentagon official for
Ronald Reagan before leaving government service to take a leading position
with the weapons manufacturer Lockheed Martin.


PNAC is staffed by men who previously served with groups like Friends of
the Democratic Center in Central America, which supported America's bloody
gamesmanship in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and with groups like The
Committee for the Present Danger, which spent years advocating that a
nuclear war with the Soviet Union was "winnable."


PNAC has recently given birth to a new group, The Committee for the
Liberation of Iraq, which met with National Security Advisor Condoleezza
Rice in order to formulate a plan to "educate" the American populace about
the need for war in Iraq. CLI has funneled millions of taxpayer dollars to
support the Iraqi National Congress and the Iraqi heir presumptive, Ahmed
Chalabi. Chalabi was sentenced in absentia by a Jordanian court in 1992 to
22 years in prison for bank fraud after the collapse of Petra Bank, which
he founded in 1977. Chalabi has not set foot in Iraq since 1956, but his
Enron-like business credentials apparently make him a good match for the
Bush administration's plans.


PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" report is the institutionalization
of plans and ideologies that have been formulated for decades by the men
currently running American government. The PNAC Statement of Principles is
signed by Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, as well as by Eliot Abrams, Jeb
Bush, Bush's special envoy to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad, and many
others. William Kristol, famed conservative writer for the Weekly Standard,
is also a co-founder of the group. The Weekly Standard is owned by Ruppert
Murdoch, who also owns international media giant Fox News."

[JamieSPC]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you read some of the old posts from conservatives on this board who don't want gay marriage or gay people? Some of the ones posted back when The Passion came out were vile.

Cite 'em. I've done a search here and can't find them. I'm sure they're here, but none of 'em are under "JamieSPC," that's for freakin' sure.

I'd really like to see something more vile than, say...

"To hell with every person who voted for this scum. You've signed your death warrant and I hope you suffer because of it."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Cite 'em. I've done a search here and can't find them. I'm sure they're here, but none of 'em are under "JamieSPC," that's for freakin' sure.

I'd really like to see something more vile than, say...

"To hell with every person who voted for this scum. You've signed your death warrant and I hope you suffer because of it."

Is it calling bush sum that was vile?

Come on - this was said in the heat of the moment - a standard none of us would like to be judged by

[JamieSPC]

Come on - this was said in the heat of the moment - a standard none of us would like to be judged by

Good point, strand. We shouldn't be held responsible for what they say or do in the heat of the moment.

There's a lot of hatred floating around... which was the point of my original post. But I don't think anyone wants to get into who's being hateful here, ON THIS BOARD. There's enough in this thread alone to prove it.

(retiring to my vat of hot oil)

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Good point, strand. We shouldn't be held responsible for what they say or do in the heat of the moment.

I am not saying that - I am just saying that I have said things in the heat of the moment I would never have said so strongly in a calmer setting. Apparently, you either have not or have no sympathy for such utterances.

[amber]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Good point, strand. We shouldn't be held responsible for what they say or do in the heat of the moment.

There's a lot of hatred floating around... which was the point of my original post. But I don't think anyone wants to get into who's being hateful here, ON THIS BOARD. There's enough in this thread alone to prove it.

(retiring to my vat of hot oil)

it will never work. They will never stop arguing. Their inhuman capacity to argue about political things knows no boundaries. You will exhaust all your reserves, and still, like pod people, they will come after you.
Luckily, i usually agree with them so i usually get some good info..

[dissention]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Cite 'em. I've done a search here and can't find them. I'm sure they're here, but none of 'em are under "JamieSPC," that's for freakin' sure.

They are there and, as I said earlier, find them yourself. I'm certainly not your research assistant. And no one ever said you said anything like that. But nice spin.

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

I'd really like to see something more vile than, say...

"To hell with every person who voted for this scum. You've signed your death warrant and I hope you suffer because of it."

Then go find those "gay marriage is a sin, gay people are a sin" posts.

I do see what I posted as rather cruel, but I later went on to explain what I said more thoroughly. But you didn't post any of that, of course. This is what I went on to say:

"When you support a man like Bush, you will reap what you sow. And it won't be pretty. I hope they do suffer from his re-taking the throne, only then will their eyes open up. And that will only mean good things for this country."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

. . .There's a lot of hatred floating around... which was the point of my original post. But I don't think anyone wants to get into who's being hateful here, ON THIS BOARD. There's enough in this thread alone to prove it.

(retiring to my vat of hot oil)

There you go again, you get called on a point and proven wrong (repeatedly at that) - so you call people hateful in some vague way. When you are wrong you are wrong - I am often wrong and readily admit it and do not think people are hateful for telling me so. Now when I get stuck on a point and argue against the facts and people get testy - well, that is my fault

[SuzeQuze]

Thanks Amber. To summarize, this group, of which Cheney was/is a member, has a plan for America which lays out how it can dominate the world in this century, seriously. One part of the plan was for "theatrical" wars to prove America's might. Getting Iraq was also on the agenda long before 9/11.

On another note, Cheney's wife was going to be on the Today show this morning with Katie and I had to turn it off. I just couldn't watch her right now without boiling with rage.

~Susan

Originally Posted by amber

Thanks, Suze. That was pretty gross, all right...
A small excerpt:

"Vice President Dick Cheney is a founding member of PNAC, along with Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is the ideological father of the
group. Bruce Jackson, a PNAC director, served as a Pentagon official for
Ronald Reagan before leaving government service to take a leading position
with the weapons manufacturer Lockheed Martin.


PNAC is staffed by men who previously served with groups like Friends of
the Democratic Center in Central America, which supported America's bloody
gamesmanship in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and with groups like The
Committee for the Present Danger, which spent years advocating that a
nuclear war with the Soviet Union was "winnable."


PNAC has recently given birth to a new group, The Committee for the
Liberation of Iraq, which met with National Security Advisor Condoleezza
Rice in order to formulate a plan to "educate" the American populace about
the need for war in Iraq. CLI has funneled millions of taxpayer dollars to
support the Iraqi National Congress and the Iraqi heir presumptive, Ahmed
Chalabi. Chalabi was sentenced in absentia by a Jordanian court in 1992 to
22 years in prison for bank fraud after the collapse of Petra Bank, which
he founded in 1977. Chalabi has not set foot in Iraq since 1956, but his
Enron-like business credentials apparently make him a good match for the
Bush administration's plans.


PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" report is the institutionalization
of plans and ideologies that have been formulated for decades by the men
currently running American government. The PNAC Statement of Principles is
signed by Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, as well as by Eliot Abrams, Jeb
Bush, Bush's special envoy to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad, and many
others. William Kristol, famed conservative writer for the Weekly Standard,
is also a co-founder of the group. The Weekly Standard is owned by Ruppert
Murdoch, who also owns international media giant Fox News."