Sarah Palin (Alaska Gov) McCain's VP

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

Welcome back AJM!And we actually agree on something !W is a lame ineffective President.I also agree that Palin has a bigger set than him and is just crazy and ruthless enough to try and push a far right agenda even though if she did end up Pres ,Congress and the Senate will not be Repub.I can understand why she is the evangelical right's wet dream with such nutty statement's as "God wants Alaska to have a pipeline" ..really that sounds like something Osama Bin Laden would say except substituting Alaska for Afghanistan or some such.As I was watching the RNC I could not help but notice that the vast majority of the delegates were middle aged or older white folks with a sparse smattering of strategically placed minorites.That party and the neo con movement's days are numbered and Palin just may well be their last best hope..A hope which I would love to see go down in flames.

I think what McCain did is pick a female Obama. I also find it tacky when people say that God wants them to do something or another. I wish people would keep stuff like that to themselves. If you believe God wants you to do something, that's all well and fine, but it just marginalizes you and leaves your statement up to moral equivocations like the one you pointed out.

I think what you're noticing is that conservatives have much less flexible work hours than their liberal counterparts, so you are more likely to see older retireees at the convention. It also depends on what network you were watching. CNN and Fox both displayed a nice mix of races, whereas MSNBC did everything they could to film old people or people that looked like wackos. I used to temp a lot for the first 3 or 4 years of my career in accounting and I would often be contracted to non-profits and other businesses that are left leaning. One thing that they all had in common was that their time-off policies were very flexible. I currently work for two Canadian liberals now and they wouldn't have a problem if I left for a convention, but I have to think that my conservative bretheren and "sisteren" would have a harder time leaving, as conservatives are more likely to be self-employed or are shift-workers, demographically. That's why there are few conservative protests besides retired vets, as most of us can't leave work. We even studied the phenomenon in my undergraduate Statistics course, as polls taken during the day swing left and polls taken at night are closer to reality. It's also no secret that minorities lean democratic, especially when the first minority nominee is running for president. The black community, according to the last statistics I heard were leaning Obama by some 91%.

I've always thought "Neo-Con" was a veiled racist term for "Jewish Conservative". I generally only hear that term from the people who call in Michael Medved's "Conspiracy Day" program every full-moon and allege that our country is really lead by the Protocalls of the Elders of Zion or some such nonsense, or I hear the term from terrorists themselves.

[ajmccarrell]

On another note, after seeing Obama on Bill O'Reilly and statements he made in the past month, as well as tossing Wright under the bus among a few others, I think Obama is likely to be the left's W. What do you dems think? Do you agree, if so, why and if not, why not?

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

I've always thought "Neo-Con" was a veiled racist term for "Jewish Conservative". I generally only hear that term from the people who call in Michael Medved's "Conspiracy Day" program every full-moon and allege that our country is really lead by the Protocalls of the Elders of Zion or some such nonsense, or I hear the term from terrorists themselves.

here is a brief description of the term ..never heard the idea you mentioned.
Neoconservatism was a political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of the social liberalism, moral relativism, and New Left counterculture of the 1960s. It influenced the presidential administrations of George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush, representing a realignment in American politics, and the transition of some liberals to the right of the political spectrum; hence the term, which refers to being 'new' conservatives

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

On another note, after seeing Obama on Bill O'Reilly and statements he made in the past month, as well as tossing Wright under the bus among a few others, I think Obama is likely to be the left's W. What do you dems think? Do you agree, if so, why and if not, why not?

Obama is a politician I've never denied that..I do not think he will be our W however I think he'd have to get a partial lobotomy first.Everybody running for the Presidency does things for the sake of political expediency..McCain once a moderate has moved to the right even moreso than after his failed bid in 2000 and picking Sarah Palin underscored that fact.I am hoping that move ultimately turns off Independents when they realize what a wingnut she truly is ..since in their hands the victory lies.

[ajmccarrell]

Ok, I gotcha. Makes sense.

Anyway, I just can't agree with you that the neocon movement is going anywhere any time soon. If it were, we'd be seeing entirely different sets of poll numbers right now. If someone were to tell you a year ago that McCain would have passed Obama on several major polls, you probably would have laughed or thought it a reason to place them on a 72 hour psych hold. The basic truth of it is that the country is totally polarized, with about 10% stuck in the middle, or not paying enough attention. Rush Limbaugh, stupidly, announced in 2005 that "liberalism is dead" and we saw what happened the following year. At this point in time, after 2 years of a completely ineffective democratic congress and 8 years of a president who apologizes every other day and fires someone, both sides have reasons for the other side to dislike them intensely.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

Obama is a politician I've never denied that..I do not think he will be our W however I think he'd have to get a partial lobotomy first.Everybody running for the Presidency does things for the sake of political expediency..McCain once a moderate has moved to the right even moreso than after his failed bid in 2000 and picking Sarah Palin underscored that fact.I am hoping that move ultimately turns off Independents when they realize what a wingnut she truly is ..since in their hands the victory lies.

Given that he thinks he can cut taxes for the "middle class" and not have them feel the brunt of any other tax increases on corporations or the rich, I think he HAS HAD a partial lobotomy. I mean, has he ever heard of "price elasticity" or how taxes affect consumers based upon the elasticity of prices when taxes or factors of production go up? I think he's an empty suit that says what his backers want, or what he thinks will get him elected.

I can't agree that McCain was ever a moderate. I think that's what the media portrayed because they liked him and a Republican that differed with his party fed into their inherent bias, and they liked to use those examples against the sitting conservative presidents. They have since turned on him after he actually said what he thought. The Kato institute ranked his voting record only 3 percentage points behind the uber-conservative (my favorite too) Fred Thompson. McCain is a federalist and it is often mistaken for being moderate, when in reality it just means that he doesn't want the feds dictating what states can decide for themselves. IE he was against the gay marriage amendment because his basic philosophy, which is the same as teddy Roosevelt's, is at odds with the idea of the federal government making that distinction. One other example is Roe V. Wade. Most people are under the mistaken assumption that reversing it would make abortion illegal. In actuality, what would happen is that it would then be up to the states to decide the issue for themselves. Both of those are positions that McCain has iterated, which are federalist positions.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I just got back from two weeks in Europe.

I and the peeps in Louisiana are fine and unscathed.

You lucky bastard! I was beginning to get worried. Glad the fam is okay.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I just got back from two weeks in Europe.

I and the peeps in Louisiana are fine and unscathed.

Glad you're ok!

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

Being further to the rigth than W isn't a bad thing. I mean look at the Fannie May Freddie Mac mess!

What about it?

[gldstwmn]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/...tor/index.html

Pastor: GOP may be downplaying Palin's religious beliefs

WASILLA, Alaska (CNN) -- For more than two decades, current Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was a practicing Pentecostal.


Sarah Palin asked church members to pray for $30 billion natural gas pipeline in Alaska.

She belonged to the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska. But though she attended the church from her teenage years through to 2002, she hasn't talked much about her religion since joining the Republican ticket.

Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. Church member Caroline Spangler told CNN, "When the spirit comes on you, you utter things that nobody else can understand ... only God can understand what is coming out of our mouths."

Some Pentecostals from Assembly of God also believe in "faith healing" and the "end times" -- a violent upheaval that they believe will deliver Jesus Christ's second coming.

"Our basic belief is that God is God and he knows where history is going and he has a purposeful plan and within the middle of that plan we live in an environment in our world where certain events would take place," says McGraw. "Sarah wasn't taught to look for one particular sign -- a cataclysmic sign. She knew as every Christian does ... that God is sovereign and he is in control."

The McCain campaign says the Governor doesn't consider herself Pentecostal. Watch Palin's father talk about her religious upbringing »

McGraw says Palin's Pentecostal roots may be being downplayed for a reason: "I think there may be issues of belief that could be misunderstood or played upon by people that don't know."


When asked by CNN about Palin's beliefs, campaign spokeswoman Meghan Stapleton would only say the Republican vice presidential candidate has "deep religious convictions."

But how might her religious beliefs impact policy in Washington if the Republican ticket is successful?

Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy. Regarding her desire to build an Alaskan pipeline and explore for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, McGraw told CNN, "Sarah knows that in Genesis, God creates the world and it's very good and that we're supposed to be caretakers in terms of not destroying the environment, so there's no way that Sarah is going to exploit or damage the Alaska tundra in the name of getting gas if she doesn't have to." Palin's neighbors react to her swift rise

Six years ago, Palin left Assembly of God to join the non-denominational Wasilla Bible Church. But the Assembly of God says she still returns for special conferences and events, such as the graduation of ministry students in June. Video of a speech she gave at the church just two months before joining the Republican ticket is making the rounds on the Internet.

Speaking of the troops in Iraq, Palin says on the video, ""Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan." Watch Palin speak at her former church »

Her campaign says she doesn't mix her faith with government business. But Palin did ask her audience to pray for $30 billion natural gas pipeline she is on a mission to build in Alaska. In the video Palin says, "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built. So pray for that ... I can do my job there in developing my natural resources. But all of that doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart is not good with God."

McGraw, who was her pastor until 1998 and while she was mayor of Wasilla, says Palin attended discipleship classes to strengthen her Pentecostal faith and that he counseled her on how to become a better leader.

"Everyone has a way of viewing the world and Sarah does too and hers would be shaped by the common sense practicality of how she's been shaped by the Bible -- which is basically the world view that says God loves people, people can access him and he's given us wisdom for living," says McGraw.

He says Alaska has already seen Palin's faith play out. As governor she passed ethics reform and took on what she's referred to as a "good-ol'-boys network." However, she has said she would not seek to impose her religious views on others.

"I think one of the most obvious ways it plays out is what you've seen -- is being courageous enough to deal with deception and corruption," says McGraw.

Palin now attends the Wasilla Bible Church. She was there on August 17, just days before entering the national spotlight. David Brickner, the founder of Jews for Jesus, was a speaker. He told congregants that terrorist attacks on Israel were God's "judgment" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity. Brickner said, "Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. When a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment -- you can't miss it."

The McCain campaign says his comments do not reflect her religious views. Palin's spokeswoman says she is pro-Israel.

Pastor Ed Kalnin, the senior pastor of Palin's former Pentecostal church, has also come under fire for his comments. In 2004, he told church members if they voted for John Kerry for president, they wouldn't get into heaven. He told them, "I question your salvation."

Assembly of God issued a statement online in response which said Kalnin was "joking" when he suggested "Kerry supporters would go to hell," and statement went on to say, "We do acknowledge in hindsight that it was careless, and we do apologize for that. This statement is not written as a defense, but as a clarification."


Palin has done little while in office to advance a social conservative agenda. She told the Associated Press in an interview in 2006 that she would not allow her personal beliefs to dictate public policy.

"I've honestly answered the questions on what my personal views are on things like abortion and a lot of controversial issues," Palin told the Associated Press. "I won't hesitate to answer those questions about what my personal views are, but I am not one to be out there preaching and forcing my views on anyone else."

But in the last week, her religious background and outlook has certainly spurred debate far beyond Alaska.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

What about it?

Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac were caused by a half-assed hybrid fascist idea of a government run corporation. If it had gone to either total government control or total privatization it wouldn't be in this mess. What happens when you combine private enterprise with government regulation is a lack of oversight and people following directives to the detriment of the solvency of the company. You have a complete imbalance of both the supply and demand curves. The demand curve doesn't change, so the supply curve tends to take advantage of the neverending demand. Hence social security fraud that goes undetected for years and bad loans being lent with huge bonuses for people. It's my basic argument against nationalized health care. You'd end up with drug companies and suppliers ripping off the federal government much worse than they do the public. With the public, they can only get away with so much because our funds are limited and the elasticity of demand is low. With the government, the elasticity of demand is zero, so the companies can charge whatever they want to, like $2,000.00 for a metal cane that costs $5.00 to make.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/...tor/index.html

Pastor: GOP may be downplaying Palin's religious beliefs

WASILLA, Alaska (CNN) -- For more than two decades, current Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was a practicing Pentecostal.


Sarah Palin asked church members to pray for $30 billion natural gas pipeline in Alaska.

She belonged to the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska. But though she attended the church from her teenage years through to 2002, she hasn't talked much about her religion since joining the Republican ticket.

Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. Church member Caroline Spangler told CNN, "When the spirit comes on you, you utter things that nobody else can understand ... only God can understand what is coming out of our mouths."

Some Pentecostals from Assembly of God also believe in "faith healing" and the "end times" -- a violent upheaval that they believe will deliver Jesus Christ's second coming.

"Our basic belief is that God is God and he knows where history is going and he has a purposeful plan and within the middle of that plan we live in an environment in our world where certain events would take place," says McGraw. "Sarah wasn't taught to look for one particular sign -- a cataclysmic sign. She knew as every Christian does ... that God is sovereign and he is in control."

The McCain campaign says the Governor doesn't consider herself Pentecostal. Watch Palin's father talk about her religious upbringing »

McGraw says Palin's Pentecostal roots may be being downplayed for a reason: "I think there may be issues of belief that could be misunderstood or played upon by people that don't know."


When asked by CNN about Palin's beliefs, campaign spokeswoman Meghan Stapleton would only say the Republican vice presidential candidate has "deep religious convictions."

But how might her religious beliefs impact policy in Washington if the Republican ticket is successful?

Palin's former pastor says he has no doubt her religious beliefs will influence her decision making when it comes to government policy. Regarding her desire to build an Alaskan pipeline and explore for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, McGraw told CNN, "Sarah knows that in Genesis, God creates the world and it's very good and that we're supposed to be caretakers in terms of not destroying the environment, so there's no way that Sarah is going to exploit or damage the Alaska tundra in the name of getting gas if she doesn't have to." Palin's neighbors react to her swift rise

Six years ago, Palin left Assembly of God to join the non-denominational Wasilla Bible Church. But the Assembly of God says she still returns for special conferences and events, such as the graduation of ministry students in June. Video of a speech she gave at the church just two months before joining the Republican ticket is making the rounds on the Internet.

Speaking of the troops in Iraq, Palin says on the video, ""Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan." Watch Palin speak at her former church »

Her campaign says she doesn't mix her faith with government business. But Palin did ask her audience to pray for $30 billion natural gas pipeline she is on a mission to build in Alaska. In the video Palin says, "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built. So pray for that ... I can do my job there in developing my natural resources. But all of that doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart is not good with God."

McGraw, who was her pastor until 1998 and while she was mayor of Wasilla, says Palin attended discipleship classes to strengthen her Pentecostal faith and that he counseled her on how to become a better leader.

"Everyone has a way of viewing the world and Sarah does too and hers would be shaped by the common sense practicality of how she's been shaped by the Bible -- which is basically the world view that says God loves people, people can access him and he's given us wisdom for living," says McGraw.

He says Alaska has already seen Palin's faith play out. As governor she passed ethics reform and took on what she's referred to as a "good-ol'-boys network." However, she has said she would not seek to impose her religious views on others.

"I think one of the most obvious ways it plays out is what you've seen -- is being courageous enough to deal with deception and corruption," says McGraw.

Palin now attends the Wasilla Bible Church. She was there on August 17, just days before entering the national spotlight. David Brickner, the founder of Jews for Jesus, was a speaker. He told congregants that terrorist attacks on Israel were God's "judgment" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity. Brickner said, "Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. When a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment -- you can't miss it."

The McCain campaign says his comments do not reflect her religious views. Palin's spokeswoman says she is pro-Israel.

Pastor Ed Kalnin, the senior pastor of Palin's former Pentecostal church, has also come under fire for his comments. In 2004, he told church members if they voted for John Kerry for president, they wouldn't get into heaven. He told them, "I question your salvation."

Assembly of God issued a statement online in response which said Kalnin was "joking" when he suggested "Kerry supporters would go to hell," and statement went on to say, "We do acknowledge in hindsight that it was careless, and we do apologize for that. This statement is not written as a defense, but as a clarification."


Palin has done little while in office to advance a social conservative agenda. She told the Associated Press in an interview in 2006 that she would not allow her personal beliefs to dictate public policy.

"I've honestly answered the questions on what my personal views are on things like abortion and a lot of controversial issues," Palin told the Associated Press. "I won't hesitate to answer those questions about what my personal views are, but I am not one to be out there preaching and forcing my views on anyone else."

But in the last week, her religious background and outlook has certainly spurred debate far beyond Alaska.

Well, my aunt went to the same type of church (if not the same church, there aren't a lot of them out there) until she died and my grandmother is a pentacostal minister in Florida. This is a gross mischaracterization and overgeneralization of their faith. Namely the "violent upheaval" is not brought on by the church, it's supposed to be the rise of the antichrist, much like the stupid Left Behind books. They are no more radical than any other church goer, as the denomination is one of the largest in the country. Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Tim Lahaye, etc are all very much in line with this form of doctrine. Painting her as a wacko because she goes here is to paint millions of people who go to similar churches and abide by the law with the same brush. I don't see Pentacostals going around with bombs strapped to them, or throwing bleach or setting fire to things as protesters in St. Paul did. Most of them are very forceful in speaking about their beliefs, which is about the worst thing you can say about them. I left the "Christian" church a while ago and converted to some form of Judaism, but I won't stand for people slandering people over their religion. It's not like her prayers were calling for God to "damn America" or were accusing white people of injecting blacks with AIDS.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

but I won't stand for people slandering people over their religion.

You think CNN is slandering Sarah Palin with this article?

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac were caused by a half-assed hybrid fascist idea of a government run corporation. If it had gone to either total government control or total privatization it wouldn't be in this mess. What happens when you combine private enterprise with government regulation is a lack of oversight and people following directives to the detriment of the solvency of the company. You have a complete imbalance of both the supply and demand curves. The demand curve doesn't change, so the supply curve tends to take advantage of the neverending demand. Hence social security fraud that goes undetected for years and bad loans being lent with huge bonuses for people. It's my basic argument against nationalized health care. You'd end up with drug companies and suppliers ripping off the federal government much worse than they do the public. With the public, they can only get away with so much because our funds are limited and the elasticity of demand is low. With the government, the elasticity of demand is zero, so the companies can charge whatever they want to, like $2,000.00 for a metal cane that costs $5.00 to make.

Okay. Now bridge that to your point about being further to the right than W and I think we're finally getting somewhere.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Okay. Now bridge that to your point about being further to the right than W and I think we're finally getting somewhere.

Um, I did, I just don't think you understood what I said. His position was for a federal takeover of a private company and I just made the argument that governmental takeovers of private companies cause economic imbalances that disrupt market efficiency. Free markets are a right wing position and government controlled necessities (with little to no price elasticity or substitute goods) such as housing would be a left wing position. Given that the takeover was by way of purchasing preferred stock instead of by discounted debt, it was a half-assed attempt at federalizing a partially federalized company. My answer is to let it collapse and let other companies buy out the assets, or have the government assist in starting a new company or hold auctions to sell off the mortgages with strict rules about not changing existing terms. Doing this would be a free market position, which is what I would recommend. Letting the housing market fail would bring home prices down to levels where average people could afford them again, which would result in another boom, only one that is sustainable. Anything short of that is propping up artificially inflated prices, which causes overages and surplus supplies; IE lots of unsold homes. Doing what they are doing is tantamount to a price floor. Price controls are never efficient. You either have surplus supply or shortages, depending on whether you had a price floor or ceiling, respectively. Keeping interest rates low, while propping up high prices is a recipe for disaster. It devalues the dollar and causes excess housing supply.