When I See You Again Appreciation Post! - Page 13

strandinthewind · #1 01-20-2004, 04:26 PM

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Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Anybody have the guts to ask Lindsey, "So hey, Lindsey, were you trying to be funny when you produced 'Illumé'?"

When they come back to Atlanta, I will have cocktails again with him and ask him

CarneVaca · #2 01-20-2004, 04:35 PM

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Originally posted by face of glass
I know it probably seems like the two countries are inseparable from the good ol’ USA, but that’s a Russian movie you mentioned, even though one of the main characters is a Finnish sniper played by a Finn.

Forgive the faux pas. The setting is in Lapland, which is Finnish, and about half the movie is spoken in Finnish. Two other languages, German and Russian are spoken. But you are correct, it is Russian.

And no, Finland and Russia don't look the same to me, especially since I was born in Europe myself. Be that as it may, though I've never belonged to the anti-communist alarmist crowd, one has to admit that if not for the influence and might of the "good ol' USA," Finland might well have become another Soviet republic or satellite. And at that point, yes, it would have become quite indistinguishable to us.

CarneVaca · #3 01-20-2004, 04:38 PM

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Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Very interesting interpretations, but I still don't feel that Lindsey was intending to be even mildly humorous with the "weird voice" modulation in the song.

I... gulp... agree with this assessment. As much as I may disagree with you on the beauty, or lack thereof, of the lyrics, I just don't see Lindsey injecting any sort of sarcasm or humor into this song. And, really, it doesn't come across as humorous anyway.

face of glass · #5 01-21-2004, 11:17 AM

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Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Anybody have the guts to ask Lindsey, "So hey, Lindsey, were you trying to be funny when you produced 'Illumé'?"

Hey, if I shouted “spontaneity!” to him in Germany before the usual “WTWCT” speech then I have the guts to ask him just about anything.

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Originally posted by CarneVaca
...if not for the influence and might of the "good ol' USA," Finland might well have become another Soviet republic or satellite.

And looking at the way our country is now because of this “influence”, I might as well prefer the big hug of Josef Vissarionovich. As we say around here: “Siberia could teach you a thing or two”.

sodascouts · #6 01-21-2004, 12:19 PM

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Originally posted by face of glass
Lindsey may think so but would it necessarily prevent him from inserting shades of other emotions into them? Would he treat them as “sacred” and leave them untouched? Listening to the demos of “Thrown Down” and “Not Make Believe”; I think he wouldn’t.

Do you think he would do so without Stevie's permission? I think not. And I do not think she would go for such an "alternative reaction."

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You’re right in that I can’t prove he wanted to mock Stevie’s lyrics deliberately. That’s the impression I got, however, and it was weird at first to hear such a choice in a song like that. Even you, as you said on your board, got that impression at first but obviously you didn’t want to cling to it. It’s impossible to say objectively whether there’s a sarcastic tone used or not as the interpretations would vary depending on the listener. For me it is one though.

You are right that I initially got that, but I'm positive it was unintentional. I hold Lindsey in too high a regard to believe that he would intentionally do something like that. In that way, I believe it is you who are underestimating him.

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For the record: I agree with Dissention’s take on “Illume” completely, especially “of it's constraint of being about only one persons feelings”. That’s a flaw in Stevie’s writing occasionally; for the uninitiated it can come off as pieces of a personal world that might seem far too esoteric at first. Her producers capable of wrapping these pieces up into something that the casual listeners can also find appealing, they’re capable of colouring Stevie’s images into something more attractive. Especially Lindsey. He’s not afraid of bringing in these “alternate views”, through his own voice or his production.

While this sounds very nice, I doubt Lindsey would be so presumptuous as to take Stevie's songs and change their meaning. His production does make Stevie's material more attractive on an AESTHETIC level. He makes her MUSIC sound better. He does NOT take it upon himself to make her meaning more "broad."

Lindsey would be the last person to try and make a song more appealing to the masses, don't you think? Aren't we all so proud of him for his "artistic integrity" in doing his thing against the mainstream? Do we think he disregards Stevie's own right to use a song she has written to convey an emotion that perhaps everyone might not like? I find this hard to believe. It would be amazingly disrespectful to Stevie.

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So, is he mocking Stevie then, like many kids in the schoolyard used to mock something someone was saying with a funny voice? Nah, not that blatantly. If he shares Stevie’s grief, it’s not necessarily Stevie and her emotions that he’s mocking, he could be poking at himself for his own reaction.

If Stevie wrote “Illume” directly after the events and didn’t do any editing on it, then it is natural that she wouldn’t be capable of taking on a point of view other than her own. However, it was different when LB received the song way after the tragedy and obviously worked on it for a long period of time. He could already take some distance to it, he could ruminate on the topic instead of being completely crushed by emotions. In short, he wanted to reflect on other possible interpretations of the tragedy, not just the Nicksian grief. For “Illume” is a very one-sided song; Stevie has only inserted grief in there (which she subtly varies, though). But since Lindsey has started to act as a sonic painter of sorts; someone who doesn’t just spurt a single emotion on the canvas but uses several intersecting ones at the same time, then it’s understandable for him to put something like that in “Illume” too.

The MEANING is not SUPPOSED to be his, Gauis. It's Stevie's. I guess that's the fundamental difference in our views. You feel Lindsey would have no problem rendering her song more "acceptable" to the masses without her permission. I have too much respect for Lindsey to think that he is that arrogant, or that he believes himself to be the arbiter of what is "acceptable" for a song about 911 to convey.

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It is there in his own songs, along with this self-ridicule; “Come” is basically a parody of male aggression (which I’m sure is not unfamiliar to him) which he crosses with the verses that sound like the confessions of an obsessive lunatic, “Family Man” is LB laughing at his disability to write a good lyric (up to that point, at least) through the various voice manipulation while setting the tune to harmless ‘80s backing music. So, if he can do this with his own songs, why can’t he do it with Stevie’s too?

To me, the distinction is obvious. He has the right to make a statement about whatever the hell he wants on his own songs. STEVIE HAS THAT SAME RIGHT. Lindsey's talents in production do NOT give him authority to act as her "meaning filter." Think about what you're saying here!

And I know some people who will be surprised to hear that "Family Man" is Lindsey satirizing his inability to write lyrics! The song's lyrics suck, but that seems completely unintentional to me. Or are Stevie's insipid lines in the song that started this thread also "self-ridicule"? Nah, couldn't be. Stevie is not capable of such deep thought. Let's call in Lindsey to do it for her, shall we?

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For me saying that “Illume” is just a “simple” song about sadness/grief after LB’s treatment is the same as saying that “Say Goodbye” is just Lindsey waxing nostalgic after a love affair. There’s so much more other things that he adds into these songs.

See above. "Say Goodbye" is a LINDSEY song.

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The problem that people are having with my suggestion is probably that someone who mocks a serious song about a tragedy seems like a cruel person. That someone would have the guts to make an open joke about a tragedy. I don’t think there is that obvious a joke in the song; otherwise I wouldn’t be alone in my position. It is a subtle joke, not something that seems to underestimate the lyric. It’s just something that deflates the imagery a bit; it’s not the history of the world Stevie is talking about in there, it’s her own story.

EXACTLY. It's her own story. If Lindsey wanted to convey something different, he would've written his OWN song about it.

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Is the using of those voices humorous? For me it is partially; although it’s humour that’s born out of the unlikelihood of something like that happening in a song that’s supposed to be full of sadness. It doesn’t make me laugh directly or anything like that. It serves as a necessary reminder to the mourner; life isn’t all centred around you and there’s people who just won’t care for what you feel. You’re just a drop in an ocean. It’s an intellectual thing, of course, something that one can only come up with after the tragedy, but no less valid an expression than anything Stevie is doing.

Well, if Lindsey wants to do this kind of philosophizing to make sure everyone mourns more "intellectually," then I repeat that he can write his own song about it. Perhaps the reason why Stevie's song is so personal is that she doesn't believe she has the right to tell people what they should be feeling after 911. But she DOES have the right to express her OWN ideas and she DID SO. Lindsey has enough integrity to respect her right!

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I don’t know. I guess I’m just a bit bothered by the fact that there’s this common opinion in our society of grief and what it should be like. These days, after an event that shocks the nation, you’re just not supposed to be showing any other emotion besides pure mourning. Anything else, even a variant of that, and then you’re a freak. For me there’s always been so much other things involved in it; cynicism, anger, depression and yes, even sarcasm. That’s what Lindsey reflects on. We may watch all these funerals and tragedies from the TV every year but even then it’s usually because of voyeurism. You never see anyone showing true “negative” emotions in public and that’s obviously because most people wouldn’t bear to watch it. LB is not afraid of recognizing these things in people though.

I actually agree with this overall sentiment! Lindsey is not afraid to express criticism of such things IN HIS OWN SONGS. But why would he presume to hijack Stevie's to do so? How selfish would that be?

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I refuse to believe that Lindsey was “cheapening the message of the song” with those voices. He was just trying to give us a glimpse of something else. It’s easy to wrap oneself in mourning and stay in that state for a long time. These people usually dismiss humour as escapism. For me humour, the like of which is in “Illume” too, is not about pushing away one’s problems and fears. It an ability to look at yourself from a larger perspective; the fears won’t crush you then.

Again, I agree with this sentiment in general. But I refuse to believe Lindsey would use Stevie's song as a format for conveying his own message (and, really, mocking voices wouldn't effectively convey this anyway.)

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“Illume” may have been written as a direct response to what was happening all around Stevie but the fact that she apparently didn’t alter the message of the song when recording it with Fleetwood Mac proves that she didn’t want to express anything other than grief. Such a song, hell, even the original Stevie demo would have been an understandable release if it had been put out at the tail end of 2001. I have no reason to believe that Lindsey would have wanted to do something that would alter the atmosphere so significantly that quick. He shared her grief, as we admit. However, in time your perspectives are bound to change and you will start seeing other sides of the matter. Which is what happened to Lindsey too, and he wanted to communicate that through music and the lyrical repetition. And especially the tones he chose to use.

I hope by now you understand why I would find it impossible to believe Lindsey would superimpose his own agenda on Stevie's songs that way.

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And I don’t share this view with you either. It isn’t just a case of replicating “Madonna circa 1995”, it’s such an obvious a deviation from the overall atmosphere of the song that it has to represent something else. Whether it’s the fear and confusion of all those people on that day or just “mere sarcasm”, depends on the interpreter.

Well, perhaps he isn't just trying to be "different," but he certainly isn't trying to improve Stevie's meaning somehow, because he deems it inadequate to express a true range of emotions.

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In the end, Nancy, I think you sometimes underestimate Lindsey’s sonic paintings; the different feelings they can evoke and the musical quotations he makes.

So you think I am underestimating his talent as a producer by not agreeing that he is changing Stevie's meaning for her? Whatever.

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I think those could be used as a basis for interesting song interpretations too, along with the lyrics. Of course that stuff might be more vague than whatever Stevie’s giving you to work with, but I’m sure that in many cases the results wouldn’t be that much more nebulous than what some of the reader comments at your site are.

If you want to twist Stevie's lyrics into a meaning you prefer by using some supposed "meaning" Lindsey added, that's your right. It WOULD make about as much sense as a few of the things that some people have sent me. But I for one think that going beyond the lyrics to find meaning FROM ANOTHER PERSON is totally unfair to Stevie. "Stevie feels this, but we can tell from how Lindsey treated her song that he believes her feelings are inadequate. Luckily he has taken it upon himself to make her song more appropriate. Aren't we fortunate he was around to 'improve' Stevie's meaning and express what other people feel? Isn't that what music production's all about - changing the songwriter's meaning to fit the producer's agenda? Lindsey sure is a good meaning producer, isn't he?"

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Another necessary disclaimer: This is all just my humble opinion! But I guess most of you knew that already.

Yeah, I knew that already. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.