FLEETWOOD MAC fans for KERRY

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree that is an issue - but my point in all of this is not W culpability - it is W did not do anything Clinton did not do. Clinton used family influence to avoid the draft. The two are equal in my eyes.

Not being part of a military system and being AWOL from one is different. I don't understand why you don't see that.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I get that you cannot be a deserter if you do not join. I am not talking about that. I am talking about people like Bill Maher saying Bush is a deserter based solely on his decision to join the National Guard and on his using connections to get in. They say that everyone knew that then the NG was a way to avoid going to Nam and therefore, W was a "deserter." They do not use W's missing AL record to further this argument. They base the term "deserter" solely on W's going into the NG and using connections to get there.

Sorry, Bill Maher didn't say either was a deserter; he said they were draft-dodgers.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Not being part of a military system and being AWOL from one is different. I don't understand why you don't see that.

I see it and am not arguing against it. All I am saying is that Clinton and W both used family influence to avoid going to Nam. Some people, inclufing Bill Maher, have said that alone, by itself, etc. is enough to warrant the term deserter. So, I say, they are both deserts by that definition.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Sorry, Bill Maher didn't say either was a deserter; he said they were draft-dodgers.

Nope - he said on Bill O'Reilly or somewheere that W was a "deserter." They had a big conversation about it.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Apparently and sadly, no one cares too much about this issue anyway because it apparently did not hurt either of Clinton or W.

This is a huge issue with the veterans and servicemen in our country. Bush publicizes himself as this National Guard, jet flying hero, all the while there is a year-long period of him being AWOL and then getting honorably discharged for being dishonorable. They feel like they've been duped.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Nope - he said on Bill O'Reilly or somewheere that W was a "deserter." They had a big conversation about it.

I'll be happy to get you the transcript; he said draft-dodger.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
But, he qualified. That is legitimate. It would be different if he had failed the tests, etc. But, he did not. He passed them, particularly the flight school test, within the accepted range.

You don't get the point, dude. The point is that there were more qualified people out there that applied but got turned down because Bush used his daddy to get the position. Tell it to the guy who scored 30 points higher than Shrub and ended up paralyzed from a bullet wound when he was drafted to Nam.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
This is a huge issue with the veterans and servicemen in our country. Bush publicizes himself as this National Guard, jet flying hero, all the while there is a year-long period of him being AWOL and then getting honorably discharged for being dishonorable. They feel like they've been duped.

I agree its horrible, but they did not seem to care in the last election and given his hawkish nature, they do not seem to care now - at least in general and based on the polls. But, polls can change - ask Dean

Also, even if BM said draft dodger (although I remember him saying somewhere the word "deserter" in this context), I still assert that W and Clinton are equally as "bad" for using family connections inan attempt to stay out of the draft regardless of the applicability of the terms deserter, AWOL, or draft dodger. I mean I do not see how Clinton's use of family connections is okay, but when W does it the Earth should open up and swallow him whole and into hell.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
You don't get the point, dude. The point is that there were more qualified people out there that applied but got turned down because Bush used his daddy to get the position. Tell it to the guy who scored 30 points higher than Shrub and ended up paralyzed from a bullet wound when he was drafted to Nam.

Again, tell that to the guy that Clinton was trying to leap frog over before he got his lucky high drat number.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I mean I do not see how Clinton's use of family connections is okay, but when W does it the Earth should open up and swallow him whole and into hell.

BECAUSE SHRUB USED HIS FAMILY CONNECTIONS TO GO AWOL FOR 18 MONTHS!!!

At least when Clinton did it, it was legal. It's illegal to go AWOL, yet Bush went along his merry way.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Again, tell that to the guy that Clinton was trying to leap frog over before he got his lucky high drat number.

Touche!

But what Clinton did wasn't illegal (or proven illegal as of yet).

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Touche!

But what Clinton did wasn't illegal (or proven illegal as of yet).

Neither was W's because the NG does not consider him AWOL or a deserter. So, I say they are the same.

Interestingly, I am amazed someone has not figured out a way to get W's records. Are they there - do they exist? The reason I ask is because apparently some records from his AL days have been released

Also - I am not defending W.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree its horrible, but they did not seem to care in the last election and given his hawkish nature, they do not seem to care now - at least in general and based on the polls.

Mmm, I'm not too sure about that. This was just starting to get uncovered right before the election and once that happened, there was a much bigger story to chase. We weren't in a war on false pretenses then either. So it's important this time. Just you wait and see.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by dissention
Touche!

But what Clinton did wasn't illegal (or proven illegal as of yet).

Doesn't matter. Carter did the blanket pardon in '77, so even if they did find grounds, he'd be pardoned under the law.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Neither was W's because the NG does not consider him AWOL or a deserter. So, I say they are the same.

How do you know? THERE ARE NO RECORDS.