Why in 1975?

[SteveMacD]

Okay, over on the Stevie board, there was the classic discussion as to whether or not the band could exist without Stevie and Lindsey. Some say yes, some say no. But some seem to think that the band wasn't going anywere until Stevie and Lindsey came along, as if they magically appeared and suddenly turned Fleetwood Mac into a hit machine. In any event, I posted something there that I think debunks that myth. Knowing that many Mac/Chris/LB fans avoid the Stevie board like the plague (Homer), I thought I'd post it here to read other MAC fans take on this.

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

3. Who had been on television by 1975?

4. Who had the record contract in 1975?

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio in 1974?

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it?

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975?

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warners?

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Also, I forgot to mention in that post that in all reality, the white Fleetwood Mac album was really the first time the band ever recorded on its own terms. Prior to that Cliff Davis was calling the shots, with the exception of "Heroes," which was an album they had to make for their own survival. I'm sure, given the choice, they would have done things differently. In the end, I think the band had been developing momentum for about three or so years in the USA and were ripe for success, and with the addition of Stevie and Lindsey, they had five people who believed the band could be a huge success. To which they worked very hard to attain.

[SteveMacD]

Yeah, but the said discussion WAS on the Stevie board...I guess I should have clarified that they were talking about the band existing as a viable commodity in the USA.

[thepoetinmyhear]

Wow, Brian was right, you can't just let this go, can you?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by thepoetinmyhear

Wow, Brian was right, you can't just let this go, can you?

And apparently neither can you. Anyway, it's not like I have a lot to think about these days, so I tend to think of Fleetwood Mac to kill the time. My friends' band broke up recently. They were a good band, had solid material, and usually got great reviews. But at the end of the day, the only folks who went out to see them were their friends. While they weren't expecting to make it big, they should have at least been able to get a weekend gig with lots of people coming out to see them. So, for me, right now, I see a parallel to a lot of things with Fleetwood Mac, the main one being that quality doesn't necessarily translate into success, which is why I find this particular topic so interesting.

[David]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

So, for me, right now, I see a parallel to a lot of things with Fleetwood Mac, the main one being that quality doesn't necessarily translate into success

Which means that one can't make grand Hegelian pronouncements such as "In 1974, they were just about to break before so-and-so joined" or "In 1974, they were on the verge of being megastars."

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. No one will ever know.

No one will also ever know exactly why they became the biggest band in the world. There are dozens of reasons that are all probably responsible in various degrees, but there's no way of quantifying any of them. It's akin to arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a Sennheiser microphone.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by David

Which means that one can't make grand Hegelian pronouncements such as "In 1974, they were just about to break before so-and-so joined" or "In 1974, they were on the verge of being megastars."

I actually agree with this. That's why I haven't been saying that they were going to break or were on the verge. I say that the momentum for that to happen was in their favor, and that the situation could not have been more ideal for them to make a quality album and work with the record company to make it a hit. The actual working conditions in 1975 were far different than they were in 1973, and would have been regardless of who was in the band. Technically, I think it COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey, but I think that everything Stevie and Lindsey brought to the band in conjunction with the assets the band already had inspired Mick to do everything humanly possible to make the album a hit.

Originally Posted by David

No one will also ever know exactly why they became the biggest band in the world. There are dozens of reasons that are all probably responsible in various degrees, but there's no way of quantifying any of them. It's akin to arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a Sennheiser microphone.

Again, that's true. But, we can compare the situations in an A-B fashion and see where there were certain advantages outside of personnel the band had in 1975. In other words, I think we can safely say that they didn't become a hit band just because two pretty Americans suddenly showed up, that there was a bit more to the story than just that.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by lagringader&r

Well, that's true and Bob Welch was also greatness but for some reason they didn't really click until Stevie and Lindsey joined. Or, Bob Welch quit at the wrong time, right before they were about to break big. That is a possibility.

I think it was possible for them to have had a huge hit with Bob. The first question I asked in this thread was would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years. On that same note, I think it's just as valid to ask would their albums have been as successful. I tend to think not, because when a band releases an album every six months, they're lucky to have one single from an album do well, let alone three or four. Look at Dave Mason's career. He had to do two albums a year when he was on CBS. The result was he had to do a lot of covers and only had one hit single during that time. His shows always sold a lot of tickets, but that didn't translate into record sales.

I completely agree that the band really didn't click all that well until Stevie and Lindsey joined. I don't think their songs were all that different from earlier incarnations, but they were able to pay much more attention to detail and had an amazing three part vocal harmony, which was definately new to the band.

Originally Posted by lagringader&r

I really do wonder if S&L hadn't joined, if Buckingham Nicks would have ever made it. I love the BN album but for some reason they didn't click either.

A point that is often overlooked. In terms of production value, I don't see all that much difference between "Penguin" and "Buckingham Nicks." If you put Christine's "Penguin" songs on "Buckingham Nicks," it still sounds lacking.

Originally Posted by lagringader&r

FM couldn't seem to achieve that with Green or Welch to the same degree.

I don't think that Peter Green wanted to achieve that level, truth be told. Anyway, as he has mentioned before, there was no real band chemistry when he was in the band. It basically WAS three different bands. As for Bob, I think it was just too casual when he was in the band. I think they were content to hang out at Benifols when they weren't on the road, or stay in hotel rooms when they were on the road. They weren't really calling the shots at that point in their career, and weren't really putting extra effort into getting the hit singles. They let their crooked manager deal with the record company, and nobody was advocating for the band with Uncle Mo at Warners. That didn't happen until Mick was the manager.

[David]

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years?

The albums may not have been as carefully crafted, but the rush may have created a more headlong, breezy musicality. Things certainly would have sounded more "live"; Fleetwood Mac's art with Buckingham at the engineer's helm was the art of multitracking & mixing.

Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

In the early years (1975-76) only, because that was when Lindsey himself took a good many orders from the other members of the band, particularly the Brits. In later years, Lindsey would have seriously balked at an outsider pushing him to tour. I mean, look at the way he balked at band INSIDERS pushing him to tour.

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

Lindsey & Stevie knew a few producers & engineers (like the people who worked on their first album) as well as some musicians (people they toured with, recorded with, lived with & slept with). Mick, John & Chris must have known the members of dozens of other acts, as well as producers & engineers who worked with Fleetwood Mac.

3. Who had been on television by 1975?

Fleetwood Mac. If LB & SN were on TV by then, it was probably like local news in Birmingham or the San Francisco Bay Area.

4. Who had the record contract in 1975?

Obviously, Fleetwood.

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

FM

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio in 1974?

Certainly Fleetwood on a national scale, but possibly BN in scattered markets like parts of the South, although that was probably minimal.

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it?

FM had the bigger road crew/touring machine, but BN had been touring off & on, & were probably able if need be to call acquaintances for help. These differences you're getting at between FM & BN are more matters of degree than anything else.

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975?

FM, obviously. BN may have had a concert review or two (they were reviewed in Billboard once or twice).

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

FM, but BN had niche followers, so the legend goes, in Southern markets.

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warners?

WELL OBVIOUSLY IT WASN'T STEVIE NICKS (OR STEVI NICKS).

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Are you talking about "Over My Head"? Didn't the Americanos sing on that? I thought they did. But that's beside the point because Americano voicings aren't what made it a hit (the catchy hooks in the song are what made it a hit). As far as the question of whether the band's big break could have happened without Stevie & Lindsey, sure. But the band's big break could have happened without Christine, too, if she had left, or without Mick, if he had left, or it might never have happened at all even with all five of them. The white album might have bombed -- history went a certain way, the way it always does. Events aren't inevitable just because Hegel said they were.

Also, I forgot to mention in that post that in all reality, the white Fleetwood Mac album was really the first time the band ever recorded on its own terms. Prior to that Cliff Davis was calling the shots, with the exception of "Heroes," which was an album they had to make for their own survival. I'm sure, given the choice, they would have done things differently. In the end, I think the band had been developing momentum for about three or so years in the USA and were ripe for success, and with the addition of Stevie and Lindsey, they had five people who believed the band could be a huge success.

I don't think the band had been developing momentum in the USA, & I don't think that BN had been developing momentum, either. FM was pretty stagnant commercially, & putting out albums that were either good or not-so-good seemingly at random, depending on whether things were good for the band personally at any given time. Buckingham Nicks was dead in the water commercially, & were still doing good music that no one heard because there was no record deal. All parties concerned were getting by, to varying degrees & none of it in a spectacular way.

I think their catchy songs on AM radio, along with their touring every part of the country -- where people could see their five very attractive personalities onstage -- are what made them break. Coincidentally, those are essentially the same qualities that break bands today!!

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by David

Mick, John & Chris must have known the members of dozens of other acts, as well as producers & engineers who worked with Fleetwood Mac.

They also know "Uncle Mo" Osten and I believe Lenny Waronker, which certainly couldn't have hurt them.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

My answer would be yes, absolutely, definitely. But they didn't. Why? Because they didn't have to because they were a big success and they were making money on the road. But that didn't mean they weren't getting pressure from WB to keep churning out the hits. Nevertheless, as witnessed by all of the great demos dating from 1973 to 1979 (Candlebright, Without You, Sorcerer, Watchdevil, Planets of the Universe, etc.). I would say that the creative juices were just oozing out of every pore back then. Plus, in their spare time they were all guesting on other people's albums like Warren Zevon, Walter Egan, John Stewart, Kenny Loggins, etc.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

3. Who had been on television by 1975?

4. Who had the record contract in 1975?

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio in 1974?

You have to consider that FM had many years jump start on BN, so of course FM would have had the most extensive network of resources. It's just an artifact of having been around longer and having more experience at making a living with music. Also, for whatever reason, FM just happened to be able to put lightning in a bottle with their first albums. Who woulda thunk that blues would become such a sensation during Beatlemania? I think it had more to do with sheer luck than with making good records. Sure, the Peter Green era FM had made some great music, particularly "Then Play On." But "Kiln House" was pretty much the start of a steep decline for FM. They were essentially irrelevant by the time Mick happened to strike lightning again by discovering BN.

I am absolutely convinced that BN, or even Lindsey and Stevie as individual solo performers would have become commercially successful. As evidenced on those few BN live tracks that surfaced last year, they put on a powerful live show that received critical praise. Stevie especially was just a little firecracker; it was just a matter of time before they would hit the big time.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

By 1974 FM was down to just four members- Mick, John, Christine and Bob Welch. Now, I love love love Christine, but the thought of Bob Welch and Christine fronting the band in concert makes me want to slump over in my chair. Christine was always just one of the boys in the band, but Bob Welch was just a stoner who wrote stoner music and sang stoner songs. I think his songs from "Penguin" and "Heroes..." are absolutely unlistenable and have not aged well. Unless you have box office data, I would find it hard to believe that anybody but the most hardcore potheads would be attending FM concerts in 1974.

Lindsey and Stevie, on the other hand, weren't just drop-dead gorgeous kids, but they seriously rocked. And Stevie especially had that "it factor" going for her that's tough to describe. She had that powerful voice and that whole Bohemian hippy dippy witchy thing about her that both men and women found enigmatic and alluring. The Rumours era FM was great because you had the best of both worlds- the blokes in the band along with the drama queen.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Are you suggesting that "Over My Head" could have been recorded with such restraint and subtlety with Bob Welch producing and playing guitar? Puhlease! It would have been full of "wah-wah" guitar effects and his monotone backing vocals. I think Lindsey and Keith Olsen instinctively knew that less was more, so the end result was beautiful in its nuance and simplicity. Lindsey's guitar work on that song (both the single and album versions) were absolutely beautiful. And I do think Stevie did sing a faint high falsetto harmony on the choruses.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Also, I forgot to mention in that post that in all reality, the white Fleetwood Mac album was really the first time the band ever recorded on its own terms. Prior to that Cliff Davis was calling the shots, with the exception of "Heroes," which was an album they had to make for their own survival. I'm sure, given the choice, they would have done things differently. In the end, I think the band had been developing momentum for about three or so years in the USA and were ripe for success, and with the addition of Stevie and Lindsey, they had five people who believed the band could be a huge success. To which they worked very hard to attain.

I do recall you mentioned some gold and platinum sales figures for the 1971-1973 FM albums, but I suspect that the vast majority of these sales occurred AFTER they hit the big time in 1975. I recall hearing in interviews that each album released during that era sold 250-300 thousand copies, which hardly sounds like they were "developing momentum." If anything, they were slowly creeping towards obsolescence; they were really at their commercial peak (in the UK) in the late 60s and were just spent creatively and commercially by 1974. Without BN, they would have gone further into the abyss.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

You have to consider that FM had many years jump start on BN, so of course FM would have had the most extensive network of resources. It's just an artifact of having been around longer and having more experience at making a living with music. Also, for whatever reason, FM just happened to be able to put lightning in a bottle with their first albums. Who woulda thunk that blues would become such a sensation during Beatlemania? I think it had more to do with sheer luck than with making good records.

No...they had the best white blues guitarist in the world...and who was on his way to making Eric Clapton irrelevant, had LSD not gotten in the way.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Christine was always just one of the boys in the band, but Bob Welch was just a stoner who wrote stoner music and sang stoner songs.

Who DIDN'T write stoner music in the '70's?? The entire Buckingham Nicks album is "stoner music", too (mainly because Lindsey was as much, if not MORE of a "stoner" than Bob Welch ever was

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Unless you have box office data, I would find it hard to believe that anybody but the most hardcore potheads would be attending FM concerts in 1974.

That's a fallacy. Unless you consider, or buy into, that just about ANYBODY WHO WENT TO ANY CONCERT (from the ages of 15-40) back in the '70's was a "hardcore pothead". Every concert hall & amphitheatre was one big incense bowl of marijuana in those days.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I recall hearing in interviews that each album released during that era sold 250-300 thousand copies, which hardly sounds like they were "developing momentum." If anything, they were slowly creeping towards obsolescence; they were really at their commercial peak (in the UK) in the late 60s and were just spent creatively and commercially by 1974. Without BN, they would have gone further into the abyss.

Again, as SteveMacD pointed out, they didn't keep an incarnation together for more than 18 months. And, yet again, I testify that had Bob Weston & Jenny Fleetwood not had their affair, the MTM incarnation of Fleetwood Mac would've eventually released an album, either the one that would've followed MTM or one after that, that would've sold in maybe not in Rumours-like numbers, but at least "white album" numbers. The legal wranglings of the post-"bogus Mac" fiasco is really what burnt out the band, and Welch in particular. They were just starting to get the notariety and promotion that the 1975 incarnation of Fleetwood Mac got.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

My answer would be yes, absolutely, definitely. But they didn't. Why? Because they didn't have to because they were a big success and they were making money on the road.

My point was that the early versions didn't have that luxury. I highly doubt that Bob Welch spent as much time in his ENTIRE tenure in the recording studio as Stevie and Lindsey did on their first album, when they were still unknowns. Incidentally, prior to 1975, the only artists with a name that either Stevie or Lindsey worked with outside of Buckingham Nicks, that I know of, were the Everly Bros. when Lindsey toured with them.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

You have to consider that FM had many years jump start on BN, so of course FM would have had the most extensive network of resources. It's just an artifact of having been around longer and having more experience at making a living with music.

Not really. If you take Fritz into account, they had been in the industry since at least 1968. John McVie, who was the first Maccer in the music business, got his start in 1964. So that's just four years. According to what I've read, Fritz got to open for Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jefferson Airplane. So they were playing on an equivalent scene, in the same era, with as many big name acts as Fleetwood Mac were in England. Why weren't they able to establish more contacts with other artists?

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Also, for whatever reason, FM just happened to be able to put lightning in a bottle with their first albums. Who woulda thunk that blues would become such a sensation during Beatlemania?

Well, they weren't exactly the pioneers of the blues boom. Well, John was with the Bluesbreakers, but it was that band's second album that really saw the explosion of British blues as well as Eric Clapton's guitar god status. Anyway, the Beatles in many ways paved the way for it to happen, as their early music was more R&B. So an interest in American black music was already underway.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I am absolutely convinced that BN, or even Lindsey and Stevie as individual solo performers would have become commercially successful. As evidenced on those few BN live tracks that surfaced last year, they put on a powerful live show that received critical praise. Stevie especially was just a little firecracker; it was just a matter of time before they would hit the big time.

I have those songs, and I'm not as convinced. Frankly, I thought that early version of "Rhiannon" sounded like any bar band in any town in America. For me, John's bass line, Christine's odd keyboard touches, and the three part harmony really make that song classic. Anyway, I could say the same for the "Bare Trees" band. I have a 1972 boot, and they were on fire. If Danny hadn't gone off the deep end, who knows how big that album would have been?

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

By 1974 FM was down to just four members- Mick, John, Christine and Bob Welch. Now, I love love love Christine, but the thought of Bob Welch and Christine fronting the band in concert makes me want to slump over in my chair.

Have you actually heard any of the "Heroes" live stuff that's out there? OMG, Bob Welch was on fire on that tour! His live version of "Green Manalishi" is probably the best, at least in terms of guitar playing.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

but Bob Welch was just a stoner who wrote stoner music and sang stoner songs.

And some say Stevie was just a coke head who wrote coke head music and sang coke head songs. Let's not forget who was in the band when they upgraded from pot. Anyway, in 1997, Lindsey admitted that he still gets stoned when he's writing his music in Guitar World magazine. So that statement is frankly irrelevant in this discussion. Why do you think he kept saying "organtic" every time he could?

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Unless you have box office data, I would find it hard to believe that anybody but the most hardcore potheads would be attending FM concerts in 1974.

Hell, there was an army of pot heads in 2004! I know, because I was sitting around them. Anyway, it's not like they were touring alone in 1974. They were on the road with Jefferson Starship. But even if they were out on their own, it wouldn't surprise anyone if attendance was low, given that two tours had been cancelled and a fake Mac was on the road only months prior.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Lindsey and Stevie, on the other hand, weren't just drop-dead gorgeous kids, but they seriously rocked. And Stevie especially had that "it factor" going for her that's tough to describe.

Well, drama queens. Can't forget Mick. I agree that they had the "it factor," the look, and the music. But even that wasn't enough for them to make it as Buckingham Nicks. Hence why I keep saying that there was a lot more to the success of Fleetwood Mac than just that.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Are you suggesting that "Over My Head" could have been recorded with such restraint and subtlety with Bob Welch producing and playing guitar? Puhlease!

Why not? The main rhythm guitar part that Lindsey played wasn't that much different than what Bob played on the song "Heroes Are Hard To Find." The big difference being that Lindsey did it on a Dorbro whereas Bob did it on a Les Paul. As for the other guitar parts, if Bob had three months in the studio, and was working with a decent producer, I'm sure he could have come up with something very similar.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

It would have been full of "wah-wah" guitar effects and his monotone backing vocals.

I can't think of too many, if any, songs in which Bob used a wah pedal. In fact, I can't think of many Mac songs that had a wah. Danny used one on a few songs, but that's about all that comes to mind. As for backing vocals, the only backing vocals are Christine. Stevie and Lindsey didn't sing on the studio version of "Over My Head."

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think Lindsey and Keith Olsen instinctively knew that less was more, so the end result was beautiful in its nuance and simplicity. Lindsey's guitar work on that song (both the single and album versions) were absolutely beautiful. And I do think Stevie did sing a faint high falsetto harmony on the choruses.

I agree that Lindsey and Keith had great instincts, which is one reason that album was great. I don't agree with the less is more thing, as most of Fleetwood Mac's earlier work was done in a few takes with just a few overdubs. Lindsey's strength was how he could orchestrate the band's sound. "Over My Head" isn't necessarily the song I'd use as an example of that. Mine would be "Say You Love Me," which is, for me, THE song that shows why this particular group of folks were so powerful together. BTW, if Stevie did sing on it, I certainly can't hear it.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I do recall you mentioned some gold and platinum sales figures for the 1971-1973 FM albums, but I suspect that the vast majority of these sales occurred AFTER they hit the big time in 1975. I recall hearing in interviews that each album released during that era sold 250-300 thousand copies, which hardly sounds like they were "developing momentum." If anything, they were slowly creeping towards obsolescence; they were really at their commercial peak (in the UK) in the late 60s and were just spent creatively and commercially by 1974. Without BN, they would have gone further into the abyss.

Again, that's speculation. I'm the first to admit that those albums sold more after they hit the big time. However, I always qualify that with it being the joint success of Fleetwood Mac and a solo Bob Welch. I mean, the Peter Green era stuff, I don't believe, had the same benefit as the Bob Welch stuff. As for heading toward obsolescence, the fact that they were on TV, had a radio staple with "Hypnotized," and were still getting fairly large articles written about them in Rolling Stone suggests that they were still on an upswing. By the same token, where were Buckingham Nicks headed? Let's face it, there's a lot more to their success than who was in the group.