The Chick Fil A Flap

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I reference More so that you know the answer is not mine. And was once common knowledge (A Man For All Seasons won all the Oscars that year!--back when the movies that won were not only good, but popular too!). His answer (and I paraphrase) was: "If God wills that a child be born of such a union, then a child will be born." In other words, there is still hope even in that situation. Remember, Catholics believe in miracles. Incidentally, More was executed for that answer.

Therefore, if God wills a child to be born from two men, then a child will be born.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

Therefore, if God wills a child to be born from two men, then a child will be born.

HA! Two men had equal odds at getting pregnant as I did- that's for sure!

[Fireflies]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

blah blah blah blah.

you're gay, are you not?

it's apparent to me that you've had serious issues accepting your lifestyle, and you've compensated by developing an extreme inferiority complex. in the words of alfred adler:

"An inferiority complex is when "the feeling of inferiority is highly intensified to the degree that the child believes that he will never be able to compensate for his weakness".

for whatever reason, it's easy to assume that you've chosen to see your lifestyle as "weakness", and you "compensate" through dogmatic adoption and self-denial.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by Fireflies

you're gay, are you not?

it's apparent to me that you've had serious issues accepting your lifestyle, and you've compensated by developing an extreme inferiority complex. in the words of alfred adler:

"An inferiority complex is when "the feeling of inferiority is highly intensified to the degree that the child believes that he will never be able to compensate for his weakness".

for whatever reason, it's easy to assume that you've chosen to see your lifestyle as "weakness", and you "compensate" through dogmatic adoption and self-denial.

Uh..if he is living strictly by Catholic teaching then he is not living a "gay" lifestyle.Same sex orientation would not be considerd in itself a sin but acting on it in any way would be .That would include being completely chaste in every sense.If it works for someone then I can't really criticize them.It is not an easy road for most as the sex drive is a very powerful thing.This is evidenced by the endless sex scandals among the Catholic clergy.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by Fireflies

you're gay, are you not?

it's apparent to me that you've had serious issues accepting your lifestyle, and you've compensated by developing an extreme inferiority complex. in the words of alfred adler:

"An inferiority complex is when "the feeling of inferiority is highly intensified to the degree that the child believes that he will never be able to compensate for his weakness".

for whatever reason, it's easy to assume that you've chosen to see your lifestyle as "weakness", and you "compensate" through dogmatic adoption and self-denial.

When I was in school, I was taught to be able to summarize other people's perspectives, to make their arguments for them--if even to dismantle them: whether it was Marx, Freud, Nietzche, Baldwin, or St. Paul. You reduce that effort to blah blah blah blah and y'all now think you just have to recycle lame arguments (shellfish! two men can have babies!) without having to actually think and understand and analyze because you think that you are so brilliant that this "hole" you have found is somehow utterly destructive (as if these things were not things that 2000 years of theology had considered--it's ludicrous). Nobody who lists the films I listed has a "problem" with this lifestyle. I only have a problem with stupid people.

[Fireflies]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I only have a problem with stupid people.

and those who support same-sex marriage are stupid?

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by Fireflies

and those who support same-sex marriage are stupid?

Are you not reading what I've written on here? I've recommended films by brilliant (i.e., NOT STUPID) gay artists who support gay marriage.

All I've asked for is the political discourse of those who do support gay marriage to make the better argument; even if it is right, even if it becomes law, it cannot win without making the better argument. And to not be bigoted towards those who disagree--not all who disagree are bigots!

I point to my post here which reflects this call: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=130


The arguments I see on here in favor of gay marriage come from a Puritanical p.o.v. Instead, I ask for the arguments in our political discourse to reflect the values of "hope, faith in the future, Love." I have attempted to reconcile those values with gay desire. I even wrote a book about this! And it's pretty much the gayest-with-abandon book ever written. The majority of the articles were written for a gay porn website (badpuppy!), fercryingoutloud. http://communityofdesire.wordpress.com/ (incidentally I don't make even 1 penny of profit off the sales of my book--all profit goes directly to the printer and distributer lulu).

[Fireflies]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Are you not reading what I've written on here? I've recommended films by brilliant (i.e., NOT STUPID) gay artists who support gay marriage.

All I've asked for is the political discourse of those who do support gay marriage to make the better argument; even if it is right, even if it becomes law, it cannot win without making the better argument. And to not be bigoted towards those who disagree--not all who disagree are bigots!

I point to my post here which reflects this call: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=130


The arguments I see on here in favor of gay marriage come from a Puritanical p.o.v. Instead, I ask for the arguments in our political discourse to reflect the values of "hope, faith in the future, Love." I have attempted to reconcile those values with gay desire. I even wrote a book about this! And it's pretty much the gayest-with-abandon book ever written. The majority of the articles were written for a gay porn website (badpuppy!), fercryingoutloud. http://communityofdesire.wordpress.com/ (incidentally I don't make even 1 penny of profit off the sales of my book--all profit goes directly to the printer and distributer lulu).

wewpz, missed that. however--i don't think using religious sources makes for a "better" argument. religion has no place in policy.

but hey, as long as you support-gay marriage, whatever stance works for you also works for me.

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

When I was in school, I was taught to be able to summarize other people's perspectives, to make their arguments for them--if even to dismantle them: whether it was Marx, Freud, Nietzche, Baldwin, or St. Paul. You reduce that effort to blah blah blah blah and y'all now think you just have to recycle lame arguments (shellfish! two men can have babies!) without having to actually think and understand and analyze because you think that you are so brilliant that this "hole" you have found is somehow utterly destructive (as if these things were not things that 2000 years of theology had considered--it's ludicrous). Nobody who lists the films I listed has a "problem" with this lifestyle. I only have a problem with stupid people.

So it is a "lame argument" to say that two men can have children, but it is completely acceptable for you to defend your argument with the fact that God could make an infertile couple produce a child if he wanted? You cannot have it both ways. Either God is all powerful and he can make men have children too, or he isn't and your religion crumbles. Now I am not a religious person so I feel arguing these matters in religious circumstances is absurd. However, you chose to do so. You chose to base your argument on a set of religious beliefs that cannot be proved because religion is fundamentally FAITH based. Ergo, for one to make the "better" argument against religion, one must point out the holes and flaws in those beliefs. Only then to have our arguments relegated as "lame." Why exactly is that a lame argument? And why exactly should homosexuals have to have a "better" argument? Are we going to refuse rights to mentally challenged people until they come up with a "better argument" as to why they should have rights? Here is my argument on hope, faith in the future, and love: It doesn't matter what religion you are, what race you are, who you sleep with, what you believe to be true, or what you do; anyone and everyone should be entitled to have the freedom to live their lives as they please without impeding the the rights or freedoms of others. If two men want to get married, let them! If someone wants to be Christian and someone wants to be atheist, let them! The only thing people should not be allowed to do is to remove those rights from others. People can believe homosexuality is wrong and they can choose not to partake in it, but they shouldn't be able to stop others. People can believe Jews are inferior, but that does not allow them to murder them. By allowing everyone to live their lives they way they please, we end all the arguments. We move from a culture of choosing sides and fighting over who is right, into a culture where we support all sides and stand on the side of freedom. Where we all have different beliefs, but we aren't forced into becoming enemies because of an unnecessary need for someone to be right. We can love each other and have hope for a better future. For less war, less angst and anger, more peace. Our future can be spent working on bigger and better things other than bickering over trivial things that neither side will ever reconcile. We can have faith that our future will be brighter than our present. Our population has grown extremely quick, so a decreased rate of growth will actually be very beneficial! By living our lives this way we all stand up for ourselves and our own rights, but we also stand up for everybody else, because by supporting your freedom of religion and speech, you also support the freedom of gay marriage.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

When I was in school, I was taught to be able to summarize other people's perspectives, to make their arguments for them--if even to dismantle them: whether it was Marx, Freud, Nietzche, Baldwin, or St. Paul. You reduce that effort to blah blah blah blah and y'all now think you just have to recycle lame arguments (shellfish! two men can have babies!) without having to actually think and understand and analyze because you think that you are so brilliant that this "hole" you have found is somehow utterly destructive (as if these things were not things that 2000 years of theology had considered--it's ludicrous). Nobody who lists the films I listed has a "problem" with this lifestyle. I only have a problem with stupid people.

I can assure you that when my husband and I were struggling with infertility, people telling us to pray for a miracle, or "Sarah had her baby when she was 90!" was no joke. I realize I am swerving off topic, but the "miracle" in my story is the way my daughter was brought to me. Not that God saw fit to re-grow my fallopian tubes.

I am formally educated (masters level), though not in theology. So while I consider myself somewhat intelligent, I don't claim to be above average and I am struggling with understanding your viewpoint. Maybe you could "dumb it down" for me? You want a better argument supporting same sex marriage than what you're seeing here, in this forum? Meaning, better than the shellfish/infertility stuff? You mentioned, " hope, faith in the future, Love." Procreation is not the only way a loving, committed couple can express faith and hope in the future. There will always be plenty of heterosexuals around, reproducing. My hope for the future is that anyone (heterosexual and homosexual) can be in a loving, committed, and legal relationship. To be allowed to raise their children with love and hope. I'm not sure what more there is. Why isn't that enough?

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by jannieC

I am formally educated (masters level), though not in theology. So while I consider myself somewhat intelligent, I don't claim to be above average and I am struggling with understanding your viewpoint. Maybe you could "dumb it down" for me?

Be careful what you ask, because you just might get it. But then again, in this case, maybe not. Instead you are likely to get more ad hominem attacks about your intelligence (the first sign of a very poor debater) or some inane correlation between intellectual capacity and obscure art films. The fact is that he has no point and cannot make arguments rooted in fact. Or, at best, he is simply incapable of articulating a cogent argument that deals with the issue at hand. I can think of better ways of using your time- like trimming your fingernails or plucking the pills off of an old sweater, than trying to distill the meaning from so much meaningless text.