Fire Imus?

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Do you equate what he said with hate speech. In other words, do you automatically infer intentional hate in that speech. I am just curious. I do not. I think he was joking and had no hate in his heart. The reason I ask is because I think if most people could sep. the two, then there might not be such an uproar. I think this is an interesting point - does a white person using those words (and not ever ni**er) in jest automatically equate to hate speech. Clearly, the same standard does not apply to black people saying the same thing.

Does racism inside of him equate to hate.

I hinestly do not know the answer. I tend to say it does not. But, want to hear other peoples' thoughts.

Good question. And no, I don't equate what he said with hate speech. I am saying it was racist. A racist comment doesn't have to be hateful; i.e., it doesn't mean someone is saying that black people should be hurt, killed, etc.

To me, a racist statement means demeaning a person or a group of people specifically because of their race. In this case, Imus singled out these women for being black women and made a comment that lowered and disrespected their status, their abilities, their accomplishments, and their place in society simply because of their race. I don't think he hates them. But I think he believes he is better than them and of a different status. And that all came out in those few words.

I think it is usually obvious when someone is really joking. And I do think that when people are speaking of other people in their own community, many times it really is joking. Like when I dish about "queens"---I'm just as much a queen as anyone else. But there is something really wrong about this white dude who doesn't appear to have any real credibility or connection to the black community making these comments. Something very not funny to me. Not hateful--just wrong.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Imus wasn't referring to white girls with nappy hair. He was singling out black women--what he was saying specifically is "these are some really tough, really black, and really ugly women". That is precisely what he meant by his so-called joke.

My comment about white girls with nappy hair was a reference to the Stevie photo I posted below it. :P

And no, he shouldn't have said it. But, I would be a liar if I said that while I was watching that game, I myself, didn't comment to my dad that those were some "scary-ass lookin' girls". Not because of their race.. but because they look like they will beat your ****ing face in.

I've never cared much for Imus or his show. But I am a broadcaster. And it's like.. pay us, put this microphone in front of our face, and then tell us to shut up? He's been a hateful old bastard his entire career. A cowboy hat wearin' whatchamacallit. And what's sad to me is the thought that most likely, the people who are so upset about what he said are ones that didn't even hear it when he said it. Just after the snowball effect. It's like.. come on. People slip up. Let the man apologize for christ's sake. His comments were about a specific group. He apologized. They accepted it.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by Sarah

My comment about white girls with nappy hair was a reference to the Stevie photo I posted below it. :P

Sorry, I missed that!

But, I would be a liar if I said that while I was watching that game, I myself, didn't comment to my dad that those were some "scary-ass lookin' girls". Not because of their race.. but because they look like they will beat your ****ing face in.

I didn't see them....don't watch basketball. I can understand having that thought. And I can understand expressing that thought. What I don't understand is how you go from "scary-ass lookin' girls" (which might have been taken as a compliment from the team) to "nappy-headed ho's". Which might have been what happened with Imus....but how do you go with your real reaction (these women are tough) and come out with a racial slur?

[GateandGarden]

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

Rosie's ching-chong imitation was racist, but I don't think it was rooted in hate. Racism can come out of ignorance and feelings of superiority and not always out of hate, in my opinion. It doesn't make it any more acceptable though.

[GateandGarden]

I don't think I can say anything about the Rosie comment. I thought it might have been a matter of saying something she didn't mean to say but it just came out, but I'm not sure.

But aside from that, in general, I would say that racism and hatred are tied together, and probably typically involve ignorance and feelings of superiority also, as you said.

[Rickypt]

^^I agree with you in general.

[SteveMacD]

People need to stop psychoanalyzing Imus, or any entertainer. They don't make those comments out of hate. They make them specifically to get a rise out of somebody. Imus is a "shock jock" who's been doing it longer that the much more offensive Howard Stern. Stern could have made the EXACT SAME comment, but would have gotten a pass because Robin laughed at it.

It's not about hate, it's about ratings. He knew he would have to talk to Al or Jessie. But, it was a slow news day, and CNN would rather spend three hours asking a bunch of media whores like Sharpton, who'll do or say anything to get on the news, how they feel about Imus than, say, Darfur, where millions of actual African people are actually being slaughtered. If I were black, I know what I'd find more offensive.

[Sarah]

I think sometimes those types of remarks come from like.. not being around different ethnic groups very much. Complete inability to understand how what you've said will make them feel.

I was in 6th grade before I ever had a class with someone who wasn't white. I had never known anyone black or hispanic (but I did know a couple of Japanese children). Some of us who live in small, southern towns hear stuff like Imus said all the time. And you know, I don't think it stems from hate. Discomfort with the difference maybe.. and that is unfortunate.

Anyway, my point is. It's easy to make jokes about people who are different from you if you're never around them. It's like I'd almost expect him to shrug his shoulders and say, "what's everybody so upset about? i didn't say the n word!"

I honestly believe that this sort of language will never stop so long as the double standard exists. I mean, for chrissakes, we have white people calling each other "niggaz" now. The ghetto language has saturated pop slang so deeply - thanks to music, tv, movies, celebrities, etc - that it is never going to go away.

My suggestion is that everybody go back and save all your posts that you've made in this thread, because we'll be able to have this discussion again soon about some other broadcaster that couldn't censor his-or-her-self.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

Bitter - party of one

[stargazer99]

Originally Posted by The Tower

You yourself just posted an article that stated that Alabama had a constitutional law on the books that banned interracial marriage until 2002 (?) and you think that blacks don't need some kind of protection from being disadvantaged? Talk about non-reality.... Institutionalized racism is alive and well in America.

Not only was the ban lifted only 5 years ago, but the article also states 40% of voters were against lifting the ban. That says a lot about the state of race relations in this country, IMO. Sure, it's worse in certain areas of the country than others. But that doesn't mean we've totally moved past it in more "enlightened" areas, either.

The attitude that blacks need to just "get over it" is based on ignorance. And as others have stated, "discrimination against whites" doesn't begin to compare to what many blacks encounter. Just because one doesn't see such discrimination first hand doesn't mean it doesn't still happen in this country on a routine basis.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by stargazer99

Not only was the ban lifted only 5 years ago, but the article also states 40% of voters were against lifting the ban. That says a lot about the state of race relations in this country, IMO. Sure, it's worse in certain areas of the country than others. But that doesn't mean we've totally moved past it in more "enlightened" areas, either.

The attitude that blacks need to just "get over it" is based on ignorance. And as others have stated, "discrimination against whites" doesn't begin to compare to what many blacks encounter. Just because one doesn't see such discrimination first hand doesn't mean it doesn't still happen in this country on a routine basis.

I agree. And - I particularly love the story about the crazy "christians" who came to your house that time and freaked when they found out you were a bi racial couple

Out of curiosity and not in a mean way, you all are successful - do you think you should get more business oran extra leg up based on your husband's race? Would that help alleviate the racial tension you feel?

I swear I am not being hateful. I am just curious to get a first hand opinion

And - how are ya?

[stargazer99]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

Prejudice is also rooted in ignorance. And it's also often passed down from generation to generation, unfortunately. Growing up on the south side of Chicago, I have seen it first hand. Racists raising racists. Parents freely throwing around the "N" word, then being shocked when their child is sent home from school after calling his bus driver a "N". (True story about a family I knew.)

I wouldn't be surprised if similar sentiments were thrown around freely in the households of people such as Imus. And I think such comments were probably based on all of the above: hate, fear, and ignorance. Then the kids grow up with the same hate, fear and ignorance. And think nothing of calling a bus driver the "N" word, or calling some female basketball players "nappy headed hos". Lovely.

[strandinthewind]

Interesting take on this:

April 13, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Our Prejudices, Ourselves
By HARVEY FIERSTEIN
AMERICA is watching Don Imus’s self-immolation in a state of shock and awe. And I’m watching America with wry amusement.

Since I’m a second-class citizen — a gay man — my seats for the ballgame of American discourse are way back in the bleachers. I don’t have to wait long for a shock jock or stand-up comedian to slip up with hateful epithets aimed at me and mine. Hate speak against homosexuals is as commonplace as spam. It’s daily traffic for those who profess themselves to be regular Joes, men of God, public servants who live off my tax dollars, as well as any number of celebrities.

In fact, I get a good chuckle whenever someone refers to “the media” as an agent of “the gay agenda.” There are entire channels, like Spike TV, that couldn’t fill an hour of programming if required to remove their sexist and homophobic content. We’ve got a president and a large part of Congress willing to change the Constitution so they can deprive of us our rights because they feel we are not “normal.”

So I’m used to catching foul balls up here in the cheap seats. What I am really enjoying is watching the rest of you act as if you had no idea that prejudice was alive and well in your hearts and minds.

For the past two decades political correctness has been derided as a surrender to thin-skinned, humorless, uptight oversensitive sissies. Well, you anti-politically correct people have won the battle, and we’re all now feasting on the spoils of your victory. During the last few months alone we’ve had a few comedians spout racism, a basketball coach put forth anti-Semitism and several high-profile spoutings of anti-gay epithets.

What surprises me, I guess, is how choosy the anti-P.C. crowd is about which hate speech it will not tolerate. Sure, there were voices of protest when the TV actor Isaiah Washington called a gay colleague a “faggot.” But corporate America didn’t pull its advertising from “Grey’s Anatomy,” as it did with Mr. Imus, did it? And when Ann Coulter likewise tagged a presidential candidate last month, she paid no real price.

In fact, when Bill Maher discussed Ms. Coulter’s remarks on his HBO show, he repeated the slur no fewer than four times himself; each mention, I must note, solicited a laugh from his audience. No one called for any sort of apology from him. (Well, actually, I did, so the following week he only used it once.)

Face it, if a Pentagon general, his salary paid with my tax dollars, can label homosexual acts as “immoral” without a call for his dismissal, who are the moral high and mighty kidding?

Our nation, historically bursting with generosity toward strangers, remains remarkably unkind toward its own. Just under our gleaming patina of inclusiveness, we harbor corroding guts. America, I tell you that it doesn’t matter how many times you brush your teeth. If your insides are rotting your breath will stink. So, how do you people choose which hate to embrace, which to forgive with a wink and a week in rehab, and which to protest? Where’s my copy of that rule book?

Let me cite a non-volatile example of how prejudice can cohabit unchecked with good intentions. I am a huge fan of David Letterman’s. I watch the opening of his show a couple of times a week and have done so for decades. Without fail, in his opening monologue or skit Mr. Letterman makes a joke about someone being fat. I kid you not. Will that destroy our nation? Should he be fired or lose his sponsors? Obviously not.

But I think that there is something deeper going on at the Letterman studio than coincidence. And, as I’ve said, I cite this example simply to illustrate that all kinds of prejudice exist in the human heart. Some are harmless. Some not so harmless. But we need to understand who we are if we wish to change. (In the interest of full disclosure, I should confess to not only being a gay American, but also a fat one. Yes, I’m a double winner.)

I urge you to look around, or better yet, listen around and become aware of the prejudice in everyday life. We are so surrounded by expressions of intolerance that I am in shock and awe that anyone noticed all these recent high-profile instances. Still, I’m gladdened because our no longer being deaf to them may signal their eventual eradication.

The real point is that you cannot harbor malice toward others and then cry foul when someone displays intolerance against you. Prejudice tolerated is intolerance encouraged. Rise up in righteousness when you witness the words and deeds of hate, but only if you are willing to rise up against them all, including your own. Otherwise suffer the slings and arrows of disrespect silently.

Harvey Fierstein is an actor and playwright.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/op...hp&oref=slogin

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Rise up in righteousness when you witness the words and deeds of hate, but only if you are willing to rise up against them all, including your own. Otherwise suffer the slings and arrows of disrespect silently.

I think anyone who disagrees with that isn't really worth arguing with.

That was a well-written article. I particularly enjoyed the close.