Hillary’s ‘American Dream’: Stuck in the Middle With You

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also and for the last time, please explain why Clinton, his wife, Kerry, and the majority of the D Party still stand behind this evidence not only as factual, but as a justification for W to do what he did, which brings me back to Hillary's 2004 quote in the original post of this thread in which she praised W for getting rid of SH. Why would she praise W for that if she thought he went into Iraq on a ruse. I mean if they all now know that the info. was bogus and that W was so horrible in the way he used it after he somehow found out it was false after the altruistic Clinton gave it to him, then why are the D's still defending its use and truth. Once again, you have no answer for that and instead allude to W somehow finding out it was patently false and then you have no comment on why the Clintons and the majority of the D party stand by its veracity. That you do not concede you are wrong here is astonishing but par for the course.

You are bringing up two different issues: 1) bogus info re: WMD as a justification for invading Iraq and 2) Hillary praising Bush for getting rid of Saddam. the bogus info was revealed as far back as 2002 but its been re-confirmed after every UN inspector has reported there were NO WMD.

As for Hillary praising bush for getting Saddam, that's her opinion and Ive seen no indication that she believed the veracity of the WMD info. YOU are the only person who seems to believe the Dems continue to believe it. Every article I've read indicates otherwise.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Ah here is the male bashing again. The poor females, they are meant always to following six feet behind the males and there have been no positive steps to correct that in the last 2000 years Those bad males


Hmmm - who is the Sec. of State - hmmmmm

Im calling it like I see it. and events prove me right as every decade advances. We've seen the end of affirmative action, the continued disparity between male/female wages, the glass ceiling for females in upper management, and the relentless attack on women's rights to THEIR OWN BODIES. Give me a break! It isnt ME who's doing any of this policy making, its the entrenched white male power structure. They are running scared.
I'd suggest you read those books, there is plenty of evidence.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Im calling it like I see it. and events prove me right as every decade advances. We've seen the end of affirmative action, the continued disparity between male/female wages, the glass ceiling for females in upper management, and the relentless attack on women's rights to THEIR OWN BODIES. Give me a break! It isnt ME who's doing any of this policy making, its the entrenched white male power structure. They are running scared.
I'd suggest you read those books, there is plenty of evidence.

I and most think the end of Affirmative Action is a good thing because it was being abused to death. I also think we will never get away from prejudice until treat everyone the same and AA causes hatred, etc.

I think having a minor child's parents consent to her having an abortion is a good thing - assuming there is a judicial bypass for special cases. I mean she would have to have her parents' consent to take out a kidney

I know more females is huge positions of power than I knew five years ago.

So, I think you are mistaken here. But, you will never admit that - so what is the point in arguing, which I shall not do herein anymore - thus, you have the last word.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, they have been in the middle ever since Carter Maybe I am confused by what you mean by the left. If you mean completely denounce the war in Iraq and withdraw all troops now, abortion on demand at any mother's age and at anytime, no religion ever at all in politics, etc. - no candidate will ever win on that - moreover, no candidate has ever run on that. Again, the middle is where the votes are - Clinton knew this and won on it twice by sep. himself enough from the conservatives to show he was different.

why wouldnt any candidate who believes those things not win? Isnt that EXACTLY what Arianna said to do? Stick to our traditional topics? Go back to our Liberal roots? I hate the Iraq war, I believe in pro-choice, separation of church and state and Im sure Im not alone...........

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

You are bringing up two different issues: 1) bogus info re: WMD as a justification for invading Iraq and 2) Hillary praising Bush for getting rid of Saddam. the bogus info was revealed as far back as 2002 but its been re-confirmed after every UN inspector has reported there were NO WMD.

As for Hillary praising bush for getting Saddam, that's her opinion and Ive seen no indication that she believed the veracity of the WMD info. YOU are the only person who seems to believe the Dems continue to believe it. Every article I've read indicates otherwise.

How about this one from Pres. Clinton in 2004:

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton and most D's are still saying that Bush did the right thing by going after SH after 9/11. Clinton and most D's are still saying that SH had WMD. Clinton, Bush, and most D's based their initial actions on Iraq on the same evidence Clinton and the D's used to bomb Iraq and starve its children. Thus, Clinton and the D's cannot impeach W on Iraq because they did essentially the same thing.

I agree that W manipulated info. once he realized he could sell his war without it. I think he ought to be impeached for that. But, the D's will never do it because they went along with him and to impeach W they will have to concede there were never any WMD, will make Clinton and the D's apparent murders for their actions in the 90's.

I also readily agree that now people are conceding the WMD evidence was not as strong as they thought and many doubt their existence altogether. However, I am talking about at the time we invaded Iraq and not in hindsight.

Anyway, I longer give a **** about this topic because you cannot argue it
rationally out of your blind hatred for W and blind love for Clinton. So, the last word is your's.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

why wouldnt any candidate who believes those things not win? Isnt that EXACTLY what Arianna said to do? Stick to our traditional topics? Go back to our Liberal roots? I hate the Iraq war, I believe in pro-choice, separation of church and state and Im sure Im not alone...........

Good luck finding some real Democrats who will fight for you.

Hillary Clinton certainly won't. Dianne Feinstein certainly won't. Lieberman won't. Gephardt is getting out of dodge. Kerry certainly didn't fight for anyone. Hell, Bill Clinton became a genuine conservative in term #2.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

why wouldnt any candidate who believes those things not win? Isnt that EXACTLY what Arianna said to do? Stick to our traditional topics? Go back to our Liberal roots? I hate the Iraq war, I believe in pro-choice, separation of church and state and Im sure Im not alone...........

Most Americans also believe in the right to an abortion and the sep. of Church and State. However, the far left goes further than the basic princ. It pushes into areas harder than some 21 year old college student inadvertantly getting knocked up. Very few Americans believe their 12 year old daughter ought to be able to undergo a medical procedure without their consent. I do not blame them. Also, very few Americans see religious symbols as Establishing a state sponsored Church and many times they are correct - at least under the USSC in the latest decisions. It is a little hard to tell a small town of say 500 people in Montana that they cannot put a Christmas tree up. That will never fly.

Politics is all about moderation and the middle elects and does so because that is where most of the population is.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Good luck finding some real Democrats who will fight for you.

Hillary Clinton certainly won't. Dianne Feinstein certainly won't. Lieberman won't. Gephardt is getting out of dodge. Kerry certainly didn't fight for anyone. Hell, Bill Clinton became a genuine conservative in term #2.

Barbara Boxer Would. NUFF SAID. Gawd, I wish she'd run...

he was a lame duck...but I still think he was head and shoulders above anyone since Kennedy...

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

So, the last word is your's.

funny, you've said that TWICE now....

even so, Ive yet to read anything except YOUR POSTS that says Dems believed Bush was right about the WMD. As I recall, they agreed that Saddam had to go (a completely different issue ok?) but had their doubts about WMD and wanted to wait (as Clinton said) for the inspection results. Its true some voted to go ahead but others didnt. Posterity wont remember the nay sayers because they were overwhelmed by the GOP hawks. But the nay sayers were right. I was right. there were no WMD.

As for your quote about Clinton saying he's defending Bush, as you are taking it out of context its hard to tell if HE believed there were WMD or not or if he was saying that Saddam had to go...I think most people agreed that Saddam was a cruel dictator who committed crimes against humanity, but again, I cant see where everyone (read DEMS) was convinced the WMD existed, including Clinton. Unless you can link to that article and we can see for ourselves, and if so, I stand corrected.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Barbara Boxer Would. NUFF SAID. Gawd, I wish she'd run...

Barbara Boxer and Ted Kennedy are the only ones I can think of with any real balls. Unfortunately, they don't run the party and that wet noodle Hillary Clinton does. The Democratic party is dead and it'll take a ****ing miracle to breathe life back into it. The ridiculously celebrated Barack Obama won't do it.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

he was a lame duck...but I still think he was head and shoulders above anyone since Kennedy...

Tell that to the people affected by his despicable welfare policies. Not to mention the Defense of Marriage Act. He should be ashamed of himself. Why my fellow liberal loonies hold him in such high regard is a mystery to me, he wasn't much of a liberal. I'm beginning to think they say they love the Big Dog just because they know it'll piss off the Republicans.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I and most think the end of Affirmative Action is a good thing because it was being abused to death. I also think we will never get away from prejudice until treat everyone the same and AA causes hatred, etc.

I think having a minor child's parents consent to her having an abortion is a good thing - assuming there is a judicial bypass for special cases. I mean she would have to have her parents' consent to take out a kidney

I know more females is huge positions of power than I knew five years ago.

So, I think you are mistaken here. But, you will never admit that - so what is the point in arguing, which I shall not do herein anymore - thus, you have the last word.

as to that:
Affirmative action is always being confused with tokenism. Tokenism is bad, because it insists on including a certain number of each minority merely because it is trying to appear inclusive.

Affirmative action's intent was to make sure the playing field was equal, that equally qualified candidates would be considered irrespective of gender or race. Notwithstanding the Civil Rights amendment (that says we are all supposed to be treated equal regardless of race, creed, color, gender, religion, sex or political affiliation), in practical fact, women and minorities were still discriminated against in the job market, even when they had equal qualifications. As I said, the good old boys dont want to share power. They have gotten very creative in their discrimination and will come up with other "plausible" reasons why a woman or minority wont be hired.

Women are the last group to get the vote and the ONLY group that has to fight to have autonomy over their own bodies for cripes sake. Women face so many hurdles and the opportunities that were fought for in the 60's and 70's are being chipped away at, so that eventually women will be returned to the chattel status of the 19th Century.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Tell that to the people affected by his despicable welfare policies. He should be ashamed of himself.

I remember that well, as I was on welfare at the time. I remember that this was the first big push after the GOP gained control of the Congress, during the middle of his first term...the ambitious Health Care Reform got squashed, and welfare reform was pushed thru by overwhelming majority of GOP votes. And, as I remember, Clinton did his best to temper some of the original proposals put forth by the GOP so that even though it eventually went thru, it was a more humane version than the GOP wanted.

I still think it sucked, and I was very disappointed I admit.

I dont know anything about the Defense of Marriage act so I cant comment.
The fact that Clinton pisses off the GOP amuses me greatly but thats not why I like him....I think he was a hugely compassionate man, very intelligent, very involved, and closer in touch to regular Americans than any President before or since...its weird, but no matter what background they come from, our Presidents seem to get a "God complex" or believe they are royalty or something...and Clinton was closer to "everyman" than any President I can recall...

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Women are the last group to get the vote and the ONLY group that has to fight to have autonomy over their own bodies for cripes sake. Women face so many hurdles and the opportunities that were fought for in the 60's and 70's are being chipped away at, so that eventually women will be returned to the chattel status of the 19th Century.

That's why I loved it when Ellen hosted the Emmy's. Nothing beats a lesbian wearing pants and being surrounded by Jews to piss off the fundies.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

That's why I loved it when Ellen hosted the Emmy's. Nothing beats a lesbian wearing pants and being surrounded by Jews to piss off the fundies.

Now if she woulda had Portia with her..........ooooooooeeeeeeeee! what a spectacle THAT woulda been! so IN YOUR FACE!