What's good for Christine is bad for Lindsey?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I have often wondered if he was legally bound. I mean it if he had been, it would have done no good to sue him for specific performance and made him play at shows. That would have never worked. Also, FM could have sued him for damages from his breach of contract. But, he made the videos (assuming they were not made before his exit) and the concert essentially sold out without him. So, there would be no damages in contract from his breach. Plus, without a copy of the contact he had with FM, we have no way of knowing whether he could exit at anytime by paying a fee to buy out the contract. It is possible he did this and no one knows about it.

And - my good reason for LB staying would be to live up to his end of the deal. But and again, if he was hell bent of going, then he should have and did go. I just think it was not very nice of him to do that.

They could've sued him for millions. They could've sued him for breach of contract and had the courts specify how much the damages were when a verdict was reached (look at Kim Basinger and her "Boxing Helena" case).

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I was just going to say, if Stevie had left the band, it would have been "Stevie is so selfish" "Stevie never cared that LB made her" etc.

Not from me. Any band member that left at that point and time would have just as much of my support and arguments that Lindsey currently has.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

They could've sued him for millions. They could've sued him for breach of contract and had the courts specify how much the damages were when a verdict was reached (look at Kim Basinger and her "Boxing Helena" case).

Again, FM had no damages. KB was slammed because the production company lost millions redoing it and it could have made more if she was in it, etc. FM on the other hand had a hit record and a sold out world tour. Where are the damages in contract. There are none. Plus, I am sure his contract had a specificed damages clause. Maybe it did not. But, if it did not, he needs a new lawyer

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Again, FM had no damages. KB was slammed because the production company lost millions redoing it and it could have made more if she was in it, etc. FM on the other hand had a hit record and a sold out world tour. Where are the damages in contract. There are none. Plus, I am sure his contract had a specificed damages clause. Maybe it did not. But, if it did not, he needs a new lawyer

Good points.

But still, I contend that no contracts were signed.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I get that it was a survival move on his part. I just think it was crappy of him to get involved in the first place and then back out when it got tough on him.

Why are you so sympathetic to Stevie's need to exorcize her demons but not to Lindsey's? You don't see that as bias?

Bottom line: Lindsey was there. He busted his ass to create a masterpiece that gave FM the kinds of sales the band hadn't enjoyed in a decade. Stevie was off doing whatever she needed to and that's fine. But her contribution was minimal, it was subpar and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave.

Stevie, Mick and John should have gotten on their knees and thank Lindsey for Tango, which was a great album. Instead they demonized him the press. They were disloyal and ungrateful.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I was just going to say, if Stevie had left the band, it would have been "Stevie is so selfish" "Stevie never cared that LB made her" etc.

I think Lindsey's fans have shown their ilk in not vilifying Christine for wanting to leave. And if they can be that forgiving to Christine, whose musical contribution to FM was at least triple that of Stevie's over the years, I'm sure they could forgive Stevie. Even as I framed this thread I was careful not to gratuitously slam Christine for leaving the band. I support her decision.

[Johnny Stew]

I was going to completely drop all mention of Stevie after last night, but since this thread has had another three pages since then, and discussions of Stevie's involvement are still cropping up, I'll take this opportunity to add a few points.

One being that "the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster material."
Take a look at reviews for 'Tango' on Amazon.com, and you'll see... along with the folks who dislike Stevie's 'Tango' contributions... quite a number of people who like them quite a bit, right alongside LB's and Christine's songs.

Also, when I first bought the album in 1987, I thought Lindsey & Christine's contributions were all shallow and too "pop."
To me then, and even now, Stevie's contributions added depth and a human element. They are different thematically, and rather heavy next to stuff like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

Next, the fact that "Seven Wonders" charted at "only" #19 is "proof" that Stevie's songs weren't up to snuff.
One must consider the fact that, just the year prior she had three songs on the airwaves. All in the Hot 100... one of which peaked at #4, and the other peaking in the top 20. The latter two singles were nearly inescapable during late '85 and throughout 1986.

Never underestimate how quickly the public burns out on someone. And heck, #19 ain't all bad... "Family Man" only peaked at #90 after all!
Was it because people felt the song was lame, or was it just burn-out on the public's part, due to the fact that FM had already released four singles prior to "Family Man"?

Also, if we're to absolve Lindsey of any sins, because he was getting out of a bad situation, then why is it so wrong to offer Stevie the same level of forgiveness for being at a low point in her life, and having myriad personal problems?

And one last point...

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Yes, I suspect the vitriol directed at Lindsey to this day for leaving after the Tango sessions is a manifestation of what the Stevie fans know deep inside: Fleetwood Mac without Lindsey was rather uninteresting.

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey?

This is how I see it:

A lot of people feel that Lindsey should have honored his commitments and toured for 'Tango.'
A lot of people feel that Stevie should have committed herself more to the project, and worked harder on her contributions.
Some feel he was wrong, some feel she was wrong, and some feel both were wrong for how they handled their part in the whole drama.

Quite personally I think it's silly to hold either of them accountable for what they did seventeen years ago.
We weren't living their lives... they were. Their choices, right or wrong, were their own.
They've moved onward and upward, and presumably have long since stopped playing "the blame game"... and we should too.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Why are you so sympathetic to Stevie's need to exorcize her demons but not to Lindsey's? You don't see that as bias?

Bottom line: Lindsey was there. He busted his ass to create a masterpiece that gave FM the kinds of sales the band hadn't enjoyed in a decade. Stevie was off doing whatever she needed to and that's fine. But her contribution was minimal, it was subpar and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave.

Stevie, Mick and John should have gotten on their knees and thank Lindsey for Tango, which was a great album. Instead they demonized him the press. They were disloyal and ungrateful.

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through. Again, I agree LB did a magnificent job on TITN and agree the band should thank him. It is his last minute withdrawal from the tour I do not agree with. I mean that was disloyal to the band IMO. Again, CM and, perhaps more so, Stevie did what they had to do to be there despite being in the same drama. How can anyone argue against that Yet, people refuse to acknowledge Stevie's plight and instead use it to glorify LB's decision to leave the band.

BTW - once again, people shout horrible things about Stevie and neglect to mention LB's similar bad acts to wit " . . . and then she had the nerve to act like a prima donna, complaining she wasn't in the record enough and losing it with Lindsey when he decided to leave." My recollection and the recollection of everyone in the band is LB was no gentleman to Stevie on that fateful day. Moreover, Mick said and no one has refuted, that they were happy to add Stevie into the mix once she complained. So . . .

[strandinthewind]

Amen Brian!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I think Lindsey's fans have shown their ilk in not vilifying Christine for wanting to leave. And if they can be that forgiving to Christine, whose musical contribution to FM was at least triple that of Stevie's over the years, I'm sure they could forgive Stevie. Even as I framed this thread I was careful not to gratuitously slam Christine for leaving the band. I support her decision.

When Christine left, it was not right aroung the release of a record and right before the start of a world tour. Moreover, Christine had let it be know that she wanted to leave, etc. Then, she stayed on to record with FM but not tour. The situations are very different IMO. Again, LB took on the project and backed out of the last half of it, when everyone else agreed to stay.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey?

I don't really get your point there. Sorry, Johnny. Maybe you can explain it better.

Quite personally I think it's silly to hold either of them accountable for what they did seventeen years ago.
We weren't living their lives... they were. Their choices, right or wrong, were their own.

I can't argue with that. I only wish Stevie fans would get that. After all, we were originally talking about Christine anyway.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

One being that "the majority of people who bought the album weren't too ecstatic about her lackluster material."
Take a look at reviews for 'Tango' on Amazon.com, and you'll see... along with the folks who dislike Stevie's 'Tango' contributions... quite a number of people who like them quite a bit, right alongside LB's and Christine's songs.

And Amazon.com is really reflective of the general public who bought TITN back in'87, right? No. I've read them before and they're populated mostly by reviews from hardcore's like us.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Also, when I first bought the album in 1987, I thought Lindsey & Christine's contributions were all shallow and too "pop."
To me then, and even now, Stevie's contributions added depth and a human element. They are different thematically, and rather heavy next to stuff like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

And...aren't you a Stevie fan, first and foremost?

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Next, the fact that "Seven Wonders" charted at "only" #19 is "proof" that Stevie's songs weren't up to snuff.
One must consider the fact that, just the year prior she had three songs on the airwaves. All in the Hot 100... one of which peaked at #4, and the other peaking in the top 20. The latter two singles were nearly inescapable during late '85 and throughout 1986.

Yeah, all of which came to a halt with Tango. Her single did the terrible compared to the others and her next album had one single (that wasn't int he top ten) and only sold gold. Are we forgetting that each of her albums got less and less successful? Her schtick was growing old with the public, Le Stew.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Never underestimate how quickly the public burns out on someone. And heck, #19 ain't all bad... "Family Man" only peaked at #90 after all!
Was it because people felt the song was lame, or was it just burn-out on the public's part, due to the fact that FM had already released four singles prior to "Family Man"?."

Yeah, sort of how they got burned out on Stevie's over-the-top ridiculousness in the eighties. I suspect that Family Man failed because it was the last single and was released quite awhile after the album was released. It still doesn't lend any credence to the belief that Stevie was still as popular as ever.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Also, if we're to absolve Lindsey of any sins, because he was getting out of a bad situation, then why is it so wrong to offer Stevie the same level of forgiveness for being at a low point in her life, and having myriad personal problems?

I have much forgiveness and sympathy for the boat she was in. I just find it ridiculous for some to say that Lindsey's quitting was an awful thing to do because "Stevie was in such a bad place." I find that argument ridiculous. Lindsey left because he had grown tired of a situation that grew worse and worse as time passed...so, he left. Tough titty. If it was Stevie who left, you'd all be crying "Well, she had a lot of personal problems." Yeah, as if her problems were any worse than Lindsey's? I think not.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

If "Stevie fans" are angry with Lindsey for leaving Fleetwood Mac, and therefore causing them to make "uninteresting" music, doesn't this fly in the face of previous comments that Stevie's fans only love her later music because they're deluded, or because of loyalty?
If they love those songs for whatever reason, how can they also find the songs to be uninteresting and something for which to be mad at Lindsey?

I never said any of those things, talk to Carne.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through.

DUDE, SHE WAS NOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH!!! You blast the man for leaving after he gave the band a masterpiece and you continue to praise Stevie for giving the band three pieces of **** and barely committing any time to the project.

Yet, people refuse to acknowledge Stevie's plight and instead use it to glorify LB's decision to leave the band.

Oh come on, no one is gorifying anyone's decision for leaving anything here. No one has said Lindsey is an angel for leaving before the tour started. Besides, you brought up the Stevie issue. The issue was why was Christine not blasted for leaving FM but Lindsey was?

The way I see it Stevie's commitment to FM in 1986-87 was begrudging at best. And her contributions to what could have been a perfect album are proof of it.

[strandinthewind]

Dissention, you point about TOTOTM is not relevant. In 1986 when TITN was recorded Stevie was extememly popular. That is the facts FM was dealing with - not her popularity in 1989

For the record, I never said "Lindsey's quitting was an awful thing to do because 'Stevie was in such a bad place.'" I said LB's quitting was awful because of the timing.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am sympathetic to LB as well. My point is Stevie did it despite her demons and LB stopped half way through.

What aren't you getting?

Stevie was part of the problem for Lindsey. The drama was at its height and he didn't feel like he could go through months of months of the emotional rollercoaster of FM at that time in his life. So, he left. Sorry, Stevie is no more admirable for staying. Maybe if she had left, too, she wouldn't be as bitter as she was later on.