Carol Ann Harris

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Hmm. I'd be genuinely interested to see what your sources are for saying this, because it's really not the impression I get, and I've read and seen just about everything!

We'll just disagree, then, unless you care to persuade me with evidence (and I am definitely persuadable - I love to have my mind changed!)

Loz

What do you mean what's my source? I'm not relaying backstage gossip. I'm talking about interviews Stevie has given. In that Rock Family tree interview, she is dissing all of FM to the point where even John objects and complains that according to her everything about FM was bad and he says her version is all lies.

If you look at the entire Rock Family tree interview (transcript from the video) in which she describes the 1987 fight, she's negative about everything she says about FM. Based on the timing of that interview, when she was mad at both Lindsey and Mick, I don't think she would be careful about what she said Lindsey did to her.

Moreover, in that interview she says she thought he was going to kill her. That's pretty extreme. That's not pulling punches. I don't know why she'd lie and say she provoked it when she didn't or not say he slapped her, if she's going to say he killed her.

I compared that to her descriptions of the earlier New Zealand incidents where she said he kicked her or something (in the earlier interviews October 30, 1997 Rolling Stone, she didn't remember exactly what he did, but said he must have kicked her or something) and then around the time of SYW she started adding to that description and said that he threw a guitar at her on stage in New Zealand and she ducked and that's why it missed her. Her version of the New Zealand incident has gained more details over time. In Mojo 2007 she said,

“I think I was singing through one of his solos or something, and he walked across the stage and kicked me and then went back to his microphone and we just sort of went on with the show. Me being pretty much the ultimate professional, I’m like, OK that didn’t just happen, it was just a joke everybody. Then he threw his guitar at me, wwwosh! I saw it coming and ducked. And he would have killed me if it had hit me; a Les Paul weighs about 30lbs.

It's not like she makes a habit of protecting Lindsey by changing the violent descriptions of events Mick has given. Her version of the August 1987 incident is violent enough, it's just not the same as Mick's version. Since she was one of the 2 people involved in the fight I believe her over Mick and based on other things she has said about Lindsey's temper, I don't think she softened the events of 1987 to protect him, especially not when she gave the interview, when she and Lindsey weren't talking, she wasn't with FM and was not saying favorable things about her days with the band. Michele

[iamnotafraid]

Unless they have video proof of this guitar throwing incident,
I don't believe it.

It does sound like a Stevie story though, those Les Paul's
weigh a third of what she suggested.

If he threw a guitar at her, she was nuts to stay.

[David]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Unless they have video proof of this guitar throwing incident, I don't believe it.

I believe one of those Down Under Tusk shows featured a drunken Lindsey who did a Stevie dance with his jacket during "Rhiannon." I believe Christine's corroboration of the anger the band all felt about it because it embarrassed all of them. Stuff like that probably happened more than once during the heavy touring years. It happens in other bands regularly, so why shouldn't it happen in Fleetwood Mac?

But throwing a guitar at the sexy lead singer? Rolling Stone would have written that up in Random Notes way back in 1980!

It does sound like a Stevie story though, those Les Paul's
weigh a third of what she suggested.

Stevie's probably got the story wrong--& definitely got the guitar wrong. There was no Les Paul onstage in 1980.

[Nikolaj]

Wow, this thread just keeps coming back and back, but the fact that Michelej1 writes here makes me lurk though I've never written anything here before- Someone questioned Michele? Of course that person has a right, and said he liked to have his mind changed. I bet she did it.
Michelej1 doesn't get things wrong. She just doesn't. And she's nice, too. Never met her in my life, I just know.
No, I am not kissing up; nyet. I am being helpful. Yes, you do!
The initials of the writer of this book in question spelled backwards incorrectly, kind of sums her up, whether or not it's "k" to think so. I think I think so. Michele, let me know!
Now, I want to go back and see if that guy told Miss Michele that she indeed did convince him of what she was right about.
Admit it, Mister
- I know it can be tough, soon I have to go back to another forum and concur that the 'How Still My Love' scarf dance was sexy, just as Michelej1 said. I was wrong to say I thought SN looked silly, like she was dusting an enormous, invisible Wardrobe and it looked like she was going to spray the scarf with Lemon Pledge any second. But she never wanted to be a cleaning lady, she wanted to be a star, I forgot.
Imagine how I feel, I was so sure.

[Nikolaj]

Not trying to change anyone's minds, think as you do, of course. So, I'll just do the same.
I believe Lindsey did kick Stevie, did throw a guitar at her, no matter if it was a Les Paul or not, did choke her against the automobile the day he left Fleetwood Mac in '87- and Christine confirmed years ago that she chased LB from the stage to the dressing room when he performed the ghastly 'Rhiannon' spoof at the band's expense during a concert.
I also believe SN at times provoked Lindsey.
In the past, many years ago, I believe LB was violent against women he was involved with, yes. Much of it could have been substance abuse related, or perhaps there are issues from his childhood, abusers often have been abused or have witnessed it. I believe he got help, or changed, or SN wouldn't be working with him.
Stevie, Mick, John and Christine all have made public statements that the various instances did take place. I don't think all four of them would lie.
The man is flawed. They all are, we all are.
I know nothing. But 4 people of the 5 gave accounts very similar to each other, at very different times, over the years. LB probably has a lot on them, too. I don't think that Mick, John, Christine and Stevie all lied.

[David]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I believe Lindsey did kick Stevie, did throw a guitar at her, no matter if it was a Les Paul or not,

Why didn't the 1990 book (which was the very first mention ever of the New Zealand incident) mention the guitar being thrown?

It certainly wasn't because Mick & Stephen Davis were holding back.

[Nikolaj]

Originally Posted by David

Why didn't the 1990 book (which was the very first mention ever of the New Zealand incident) mention the guitar being thrown?

It certainly wasn't because Mick & Stephen Davis were holding back.

I think that's a good point you raise, David.
I'd say that you would know as well or better than anyone (me) who reached conclusions from the old war stories.
Come to think of it; had SN been kicked on stage by LB, and had a guitar thrown at her, I don't think a 'show must go on' mentality would have kept her performing along, what a giving performer. Human nature would have had to factor in- I think she'd have grabbed a handy SOTM triangle or a tambo or just given a high kick to his lower regions with those nutcracker boots. SN doesn't uh - strike me- as someone who would just take it.
Maybe David and others- notafraid, I think it was- are right. Even with the band on the other side of the world, it likely would have made news, somewhere.
And no-one at the NZ concert seemed to "notice" a kick or a flying guitar?
It is possible that the 'Rhiannon impersonation' which seems for sure to be true, was embellished to include a kick and a tossed guitar.
Maybe that was the point of David and others- just saw that this CAH thread kept coming back to near the top of the Rumours forum, so read a bit of it last night, but not all of it. Not the best way to approach leaving an informed reply of any substance. I'm sorry.
'Rumours' don't convict a person, and the proof does seems vague.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Someone questioned Michele? Of course that person has a right, and said he liked to have his mind changed. I bet she did it.
Michelej1 doesn't get things wrong. She just doesn't. And she's nice, too. Never met her in my life, I just know.

Now, I want to go back and see if that guy told Miss Michele that she indeed did convince him of what she was right about.
Admit it, Mister

Don't worry, it's all good, Nikolaj. I've been sleeping, that's all! I live in Scotland and it was gone 1.00 a.m. when I last posted (now about 6.30 a.m. and the first thing is, I'm back on the Ledge, ha ha).

Has Michele changed my mind? No, not really, regarding my original assertion that, taken over the whole piece, both LB and SN are very careful about what they say about the day of the argument in 1987. It could just be that our judgement of what 'careful' means doesn't agree, but I still think they talk around it, and that that's deliberate.

Has Michele changed my mind about whether SN has embellished and changed the guitar-chucking episode? Yes, I think so. And I also think that she's absolutely right to bring up that the state of SN-FM relations colours what she says.

Two other wee points: I think the HSML dance is sexy, too. And I'm a woman. (I registered when I was trolleyed one night listening to Tusk, used a name that's a private joke and now have to live my whole Ledgie life with it! )

[Nikolaj]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Don't worry, it's all good, Nikolaj. I've been sleeping, that's all! I live in Scotland and it was gone 1.00 a.m. when I last posted (now about 6.30 a.m. and the first thing is, I'm back on the Ledge, ha ha).

Has Michele changed my mind? No, not really, regarding my original assertion that, taken over the whole piece, both LB and SN are very careful about what they say about the day of the argument in 1987. It could just be that our judgement of what 'careful' means doesn't agree, but I still think they talk around it, and that that's deliberate.

Has Michele changed my mind about whether SN has embellished and changed the guitar-chucking episode? Yes, I think so. And I also think that she's absolutely right to bring up that the state of SN-FM relations colours what she says.

Two other wee points: I think the HSML dance is sexy, too. And I'm a woman. (I registered when I was trolleyed one night listening to Tusk, used a name that's a private joke and now have to live my whole Ledgie life with it! )

Thanks, Miss/Ms. Jellyman for the very nice reply and clarifications. I'm glad you knew there was an attempt at humor in what I wrote.
Of course, your points are beautifully stated and very interesting, and hot dang, there's another good writer to enjoy on The Ledge. There's quite a number of exceptionally interesting bardscribes here.
So, you were "trolleyed" were you? I love that! Never heard the term before, but it requires no translation! More, please.
I am so sorry I called you 'Mister', yikes. I'm on a Mister kick, lately. I should stop.
Oh, and, you wrote 'the first thing is, I'm back on The Ledge'-- that's a really good sign- your life is over! Kidding of course, see it's 4:57 a.m. as I type. Some of us go to bed when others like you wake up at 6:30 am, others never seem to sleep...except when I drone on. I know, hard to imagine, but it's happened.
Oh, ok, ok, it was sexy, already! Everybody says so! What was I thinking?

[CADreaming]

You know, not to start anything, but Lindsey kicks at Stevie even now. She just keeps her distance, stays on her side of the stage. Smart gal.



(see 4:20's for kicking action)

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Thanks, Miss/Ms. Jellyman for the very nice reply and clarifications. I'm glad you knew there was an attempt at humor in what I wrote.
Of course, your points are beautifully stated and very interesting, and hot dang, there's another good writer to enjoy on The Ledge. There's quite a number of exceptionally interesting bardscribes here.
So, you were "trolleyed" were you? I love that! Never heard the term before, but it requires no translation! More, please.
I am so sorry I called you 'Mister', yikes. I'm on a Mister kick, lately. I should stop.
Oh, and, you wrote 'the first thing is, I'm back on The Ledge'-- that's a really good sign- your life is over! Kidding of course, see it's 4:57 a.m. as I type. Some of us go to bed when others like you wake up at 6:30 am, others never seem to sleep...except when I drone on. I know, hard to imagine, but it's happened.
Oh, ok, ok, it was sexy, already! Everybody says so! What was I thinking?

Thank you very much, Nikolaj. I always like to read your posts - even the 'droning' ones.

Here's to many more good discussions and laughs in future here.

Loz

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

I'm a woman. (I registered when I was trolleyed one night listening to Tusk, used a name that's a private joke and now have to live my whole Ledgie life with it! )

Glad you cleared that up. I thought you were a man also. We just found out this week that MacShadowsBall is a man also. I totally thought he was a woman.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Glad you cleared that up. I thought you were a man also. We just found out this week that MacShadowsBall is a man also. I totally thought he was a woman.

I know, usernames can be confusing, or just daft in my case. Anyway, yes, female I am indeed.

I'm totally gonna pimp my profile when I get a minute, too. I love all the pics and gifs and all that.

Loz

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I was wrong to say I thought SN looked silly, like she was dusting an enormous, invisible Wardrobe and it looked like she was going to spray the scarf with Lemon Pledge any second. But she never wanted to be a cleaning lady, she wanted to be a star, I forgot.
Imagine how I feel, I was so sure.

Staged gestures can hit or miss. Probably the most sexy is the spontaneous moments. The BTM made me think of the SYW dance and the little lasso move. How quaint and unnatural it looks. But it was fun at the time.

Of course, I've a great bias in favor of HSML anyway. I love the part where she's saying it's me that's talking to you in the still of the night, it's always me, so by the time she gets to the scarf dance, I'm already thinking sultry. That no doubt lends to the scarf perceptions.
Michele

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by David

There was no Les Paul onstage in 1980.

What about Mary Ford?

And I wish I could see that Stevie dance
that Lindsey did.


I haven't read all the post in this thread,
so is the guitar throwing story in Harris'
book? POV are so enlightening.