Police: Man shot 'not connected' to bombings

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

What that report doesn't make clear is that the train was full of people at the time, and they saw the guy get shot four or five times in the head. People here aren't even used to police carrying guns, let alone blowing someone away on a train in full view. You just don't expect it to happen while you're travelling to work in the morning. I use that tube line a lot and I don't know how I would have dealt with seeing someone get offed like that while I'm standing there minding my own business.

Another point is that the police were plain-clothed, so onlookers were not immediately aware that they were police. My hunch is that they were not ordinary police, or even SO19 (the armed section of the police who normally carry rifles not pistols) - maybe they were SAS, and those guys have no compunction about killing anyone at any time.

Interesting...and very disturbing. Thanks for that info. That's absolutely horrible that the train was full of people. I really cannot imagine how it was to be one of them.

[gldstwmn]

The man was on the ground restrained when he was shot five times in the head at point blank range.

[strandinthewind]

Shot man not connected to bombing
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.
The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

Police also said a suspect package found in north-west London on Saturday may be linked to Thursday's attacks.

'Tragedy'

Scotland Yard said Mr Menezes, who lived in Brixton, south London, was completely unconnected to the bomb attacks and added: "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."





The Brazilian government has expressed its shock at the killing and Brazil's foreign minister Celso Amorim is on his way to London to get an explanation from foreign secretary Jack Straw.

In a statement the government said it "looks forward to receiving the necessary explanation from the British authorities on the circumstances which led to this tragedy".

The shooting is being investigated by officers from Scotland Yard's Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

The family of Mr Menezes told the Brazilian media there was nothing in his past which would give him a reason to run from police.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Alves, told O Globo television: "I asked that the body be released as quickly as possible, we need to bring him to Brazil, which is what the family wants".

"He does not have a past that would make him run from police," he said.

Mr Alves said Mr Menezes, who was from the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, had lived in London legally for at least three years and was employed as an electrician. Civil rights groups have called for a full inquiry into the shooting.

Meanwhile Dr Azzam Tamimi from the Muslim Association of Britain told BBC News the police should review their procedures.


HAVE YOUR SAY
A situation like this demands firm and decisive action
Peter Nurse, France


"Frankly it doesn't matter whether he is a Muslim or not, he is a human being.

"It is human lives that are being targeted whether by terrorists or whether in this case unfortunately, by people who are supposed to be chasing or catching the terrorists."

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

Suspicious package

A package was found by a member of the public in bushes in Little Wormwood Scrubs on Saturday morning.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "Explosives officers attended the scene. An initial examination suggests that the object may be linked to devices found at four locations in London on July 21."

Police said it would be subject to "detailed forensic analysis".

Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.

Meanwhile the News of the World newspaper has offered a £100,000 reward to catch the second wave of London bombers.

Scotland Yard said they had been contacted by over 500 members of the public following the release of CCTV footage of four suspects.

Detectives said they were hopeful of useful lines of inquiry coming from the calls and e-mails.

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

[tuigirl]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I thought she was saying that shooting people in the chest is what they normally do if the person resists arrest.

...umm no, I was suggesting on what I heard off the tv news that, British police, if NEEDING to bring down a man (which dosn't usually happen very much), would shoot in the chest (shoulder area, legs too I imagine depending on the circumstances) with the intent not to kill, but to disable. Of course that has now all changed.It is tragic that this man is dead and seems to be unconnected, but as MFM said, he did come from a house under serveillence (for some time, wer'e told) and made the bad decision to run when told to stop.I don't think we'll see the last of these incidents considering how tense the situation is at the moment, lets just hope this is a lesson for anyone else thinking of resisting arrest.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by tuigirl

...umm no, I was suggesting on what I heard off the tv news that, British police, if NEEDING to bring down a man (which dosn't usually happen very much), would shoot in the chest (shoulder area, legs too I imagine depending on the circumstances) with the intent not to kill, but to disable. Of course that has now all changed.It is tragic that this man is dead and seems to be unconnected, but as MFM said, he did come from a house under serveillence (for some time, wer'e told) and made the bad decision to run when told to stop.I don't think we'll see the last of these incidents considering how tense the situation is at the moment, lets just hope this is a lesson for anyone else thinking of resisting arrest.

Oh, okay. Thank you for explaining.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time?

Pretty much, yes.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I thought she was saying that shooting people in the chest is what they normally do if the person resists arrest.

Actually, it's the "torso."

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Serrart

He was Brazilian, but I don't know if he spoke English or not... It was a terrible senseless mistake but you also have to understand there's a sense of incumbent new tragedy in Europe right now. Intelligence Reports say it's not over and some Countries are more at risk right now. So I guess the nerves are pretty much shaken.

Romy

Since we've already been to this rodeo over here, I am watching with fascination to see how the British government is reacting to this tragedy. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by madformac

Well, I'm going to have a rant now... I don't have them often and usually I tend to keep the peace around here but I'm sick of hearing about criticism of our Police..

I don't think anyone here has ever criticized your police before. Do you mean the police are being crticized over there by the press and such?

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by madformac

Secondly, you have a suspect, followed from a house that has been under surveilance for some time by MI5 and Special Branch and linked with the terrorists in question

Mmmm. I heard it was an aprtment building or row houses. He could have been just a visitor to one of those, no?
Also, why announce that they were watching those apartments/row houses? That cover is blown now.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by madformac

When it looks like he is to board a train it is felt necessary for the Police to reveal themselves to him... They shout "Halt, armed Police!" and what does he do???? He runs! Runs towards the tube train followed by up to 20 armed officers..

Again, I heard they were plain clothes and that only five officers were in close pursuit. If you didn't speak English and a bunch of people with guns were chasing after you screaming, what might you do?

Originally Posted by madformac

And it seems as usual, the cries of wrong doing come from a country with very little history of terrorism.. Before Oklahoma and 9/11 the United States were somewhat naive, indeed, the majority of funding for the IRA terrorist campaign during the 1970's and 80's especially came from the USA. Ah yes, the Irish Republican Army. It has been the norm for more than 30 years for ordinary people walking the streets of London, Birmingham, Manchester, Belfast etc, to go out not knowing if they were the next to die in a bombing. We have suffered terrorist outrages for many, many years and have gotten to the point where we are unfortunately used to it.

True. But this is your first go round with "Al CIAda", no?

Originally Posted by madformac

I have to ask myself how the average trigger happy US officer would have reacted in such a situation given their history of shooting people dead in far less obvious scenarios..

Well, we still can't find Bin Laden and what's worse is no one seems to care.

Originally Posted by madformac

I will continue to travel in London by tube and bus, as I always do.

And I will wish for the continued safety of you and everyone else who has to do so.

Originally Posted by madformac

As for the terrorists too. There has been a lot of talk of these bombings being linked to Iraq and UK troops being stationed there. If the troops pull out, the bombings stop.. This has been mentioned by Islamic extremists, they also mention that 26,000 Iraqis have died since the US and UK conflict in Iraq started.

Actually, our government stopped counting the Iraqi casualties long ago. In fact, I'm not sure they ever really counted them in the first place. The numbers that have been floated about exceed 100,000.
Don't be fooled by the propagandist term "insurgent." Certainly they are being funded by someone. But let me ask you this. If your country was attacked ( and it was, some sixty plus years ago) don't you think your countrymen would somehow fight back? They certainly would and did. Back in those days, it was called "the resistance." That's what you're seeing in Iraq now. Can you blame them? We have no valid reason to be there. That's already been established.

edited for clarity

[strandinthewind]

Apology for Mistaken Shooting

Monday, July 25, 2005

Associated Press

LONDON — The head of London's (search) police force expressed deep regret Sunday for the slaying of a Brazilian man by officers who mistook him for a suspect in the recent terror bombings, but defended the police use of deadly force.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair (search) also said there were similarities between the explosives used in Thursday's failed bomb attacks and those detonated in the deadly July 7 bombings. But he said investigators still had no proof the two strikes were linked.

"The equipment in the bombs had all the elements that it should have but it didn't work," Blair told Sky News TV, referring to the explosives that failed to detonate properly Thursday on three subway cars and a double-decker bus.

"It had some similarities" to the devices used by four homicide bombers who killed themselves and 52 other people in three subway trains and a double-decker bus July 7.

Later Sunday, relatives and friends of people killed in those explosions planned to visit the sites of the attacks after a police briefing on the state of the investigation.

Commissioner Blair, asked if the latest attacks and the July 7 bombings were connected, replied, "We have no proof that they are linked but clearly there is a pattern here."

Police have made two arrests after Thursday's botched attacks. Officers have not released the identities of the arrested, nor many other details about them. Blair said the arrested remained in custody, but added that officers were "still anxious for any sighting of the four individuals" who carried out the Thursday strikes. Closed-circuit TV stills of the suspects were made public last week.

Police also said a package found in west London on Saturday may be linked to the devices used in Thursday's bomb attempts, but gave no details of what the package contained.

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes (search), 27, a Brazilian citizen. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

Police initially said they believed Menezes was linked to the investigation of Thursday's attacks, but later said he had no connection to the bomb attempts.

"This is a tragedy," Commissioner Blair said of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He defended the officers' shooting to kill, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot to kill policy; it's only a shoot to kill in order to protect policy," he said.

British police had drawn from the experience of other countries that have had to deal with suicide attackers, he said.

"It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," Blair said. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," Blair said.

Blair spoke of the problem his officers faced.

"What we have got to recognize is that people are taking incredibly difficult fast-time decisions in life threatening situations," he said. "... What's most important to recognize is that it's still happening out there. There are still officers out there having to make those calls as we speak."

Police said Menezes attracted police attention because he left a building that was under surveillance after Thursday's attacks. They said he was then followed by surveillance officers to the station, and that his clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions.

Brazil's Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed," over the death of Menezes, whom they did not name, but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."

Britain's Foreign Office said that Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, who is visiting London, would hold a private meeting with a British official to discuss the circumstances of the shooting.

Menezes was an electrician who had been working in Britain for three years, said his cousin Alex Pereira, who also lives in London.

"He was a 100 percent good guy who never did anything wrong and had no reason to run," Pereira said. "I don't think he ran from police. I don't think he would do that. They can't show anything that shows that he had."

The shooting was an indication of the anxiety in the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe.

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public.

"It's incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it's very important that young Asian men don't feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there," Chakrabarti said.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, "It's absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness."

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

The man was on the ground restrained when he was shot five times in the head at point blank range.

Which is completely f*cked up no matter what country you are in. If he was restrained he could have been cuffed and thus disarmed.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Which is completely f*cked up no matter what country you are in. If he was restrained he could have been cuffed and thus disarmed.

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

Thanks for making my point in a more polite and informative way..