The doc!!!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."

You can call getting fired an extended vacation, but it's still getting fired. You can call a rejected song whatever you want, but it's still a reject. And because it was rejected from a certain project does not mean song is bad. For the third time.

As far as whether Stevie's stuff is up to par with Lindsey's, I have been intrigued with some comments on these very boards from Stevie fans who say they like Lindsey's songs on SYW better than Stevie's. As for myself, the two gems on SYW from Stevie are Goodbye Baby and Everybody Finds Out. Garden (too 80s), Silver Girl (too crappy) and Smile at You (can't get past the atrocious grammar in the chorus) I don't even listen to. Thrown Down is cool. SWY is catchy once you get to the chorus, but those two-note verses are a little grating. Illume, despite my problems with it, has a certain charm.

Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).

Anyway, this thread is becoming tiresome.

Let's dance.

(A quarter for whomever gets that reference.)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."

I think songs like "Smile At You," "Goodbye Baby," and "Running Through The Garden" prove themselves to be far more than mere "rejects."
"Gypsy" was originally intended for 'Bella Donna,' before Stevie decided it would make a better Fleetwood Mac song... and I don't think anyone considers that masterpiece to be a "reject" either.

Stevie has said on many occasions that certain songs... no matter how much she loves them, or how proud she is of them... just don't fit the feel of certain albums. So instead of including something that might get lost in the shuffle, she'll pull it for another time and album, where it can have a place of honor (my wording, not hers).

"Thrown Down," for instance, given that it was written about Lindsey during 'The Dance' tour, Stevie decided that it would make a much better Mac song than a solo song, so she pulled it from the running for 'TISL.'

Of all of the songs that she has in her vaults, she hand-picked 17 that she thought would fit alongside Lindsey's songs, as well as supply certain textures that would help round out the album.
Which is not the least bit akin to just throwing the band some rejects.

In regards to her writing the "Phoenix Four," she has said that she felt the need to write some additional songs because of the experiences she had in the time the album was being recorded.
As a writer, she had new things she needed to say, and she knew that it needed to be done in a timely fashion.

Certainly not because her songs weren't on par with Lindsey's (an opinion for which I'll just consider the source ).

By the way, I don't at all feel that her material brings Lindsey's down. In fact, I totally believe that Stevie's songs added textures that Lindsey's album would have lacked otherwise... thus elevating the project.

I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if about 500,000-600,000 of 'Say You Will's' 810,827 albums sold, could be attributed to "the Stevie Factor."

That was a very refreshing post.

And I agree Stevie is what made people buy the album. Without her picture on the cover and her name on that little sticker (that says 18 brand new songs featuring stevie nicks...) the album wouldn't have sold much. I don't even know if I would have purchased it, because I am more a Stevie fan then a FM fan.

And I think her material is stronger then Lindsey's strange songs (e.g. Red Rover, Come, Murrow) wich are nice to listen to from time to time, but Stevie's more down to earth songs are what gives this album its heart.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca


Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).

I think Stevie should have 90% of the credit for getting people to come to the shows. I know everyone will disagree, but Stevie will go down in history for her witchy persona on stage and that's what most people want to experience.

[Alison]

I don't know if I should add anything here or not. I know for me it is Stevie that draws me. I love Lindsey's guitar playing and musical genus. But I find I get tired of most of Lindsey's songs real fast. I find Stevie hits that certain spot in my heart that Lindsey seldom does. I can play most of Stevie's songs on "Say You Will" over and over. I find I like Lindsey the best when he strips his songs down. When it is him and his finger picking on guitar, thats when I find him the softest, but also the strongest.
Stevie is the smooth cream that goes into the coffee.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I think Stevie should have 90% of the credit for getting people to come to the shows. I know everyone will disagree, but Stevie will go down in history for her witchy persona on stage and that's what most people want to experience.

That was the case twenty years ago, not now. Her witchy stage persona was the big draw back then, but it's very faint these days. Now it's Fleetwood Mac that gets the people to come to shows. And I'd bet my life that after seeing Lindsey and his performances on this tour, those people who just went to see Stevie will go to see him next time around.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You can call getting fired an extended vacation, but it's still getting fired. You can call a rejected song whatever you want, but it's still a reject. And because it was rejected from a certain project does not mean song is bad. For the third time.

True enough, but there's also a difference between getting fired and choosing to leave your job, no?

Anyway, the term "reject" implies that something isn't good enough to cut it, and I was simply explaining that Stevie's songs were no mere "rejects"... they were songs that she felt would be better suited to other projects. The choices were made with consideration to the material, not because the material was of a lesser quality.
If you still feel that makes them "rejects," then by the same token, this batch of Lindsey's songs are also rejects, because Warner Bros. wasn't interested in them. But I don't think that assessment would be a fair one either.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
As far as whether Stevie's stuff is up to par with Lindsey's, I have been intrigued with some comments on these very boards from Stevie fans who say they like Lindsey's songs on SYW better than Stevie's. As for myself, the two gems on SYW from Stevie are Goodbye Baby and Everybody Finds Out. Garden (too 80s), Silver Girl (too crappy) and Smile at You (can't get past the atrocious grammar in the chorus) I don't even listen to. Thrown Down is cool. SWY is catchy once you get to the chorus, but those two-note verses are a little grating. Illume, despite my problems with it, has a certain charm.

I've seen a few people around here say that they like Lindsey's material better than Stevie's, too... but I've also seen quite a few people who feel the opposite.
In fact, of the handful of friends and family I've loaned the album to, the one comment I've heard most was, "well, I liked Stevie's stuff." And this from people who, in the past, quite liked Lindsey's music.
Now, none of this is a confirmation that one writer's material was better... it's just another example of differing tastes.

And with all due respect, I still think it's silly to dislike a song over bad grammar, because, again, that technicality would wipe out a lot of great rock & roll songs.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).

I think my cousin, Beth, and her husband, might have said it best.... "Lindsey absolutely blew us away with his energy, but Stevie was still the one who kept us enthralled all night."

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Anyway, this thread is becoming tiresome.

Let's dance.

Put on your red shoes, and dance the blues.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Put on your red shoes, and dance the blues.

Ahh, Bowie.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Ahh, Bowie.

Don't you just adore him?

It's a bit of a dark-horse, but I think my favorite Bowie song would have to be "Absolute Beginners."
But you really can't go wrong where the Thin White Duke is concerned.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Don't you just adore him?

It's a bit of a dark-horse, but I think my favorite Bowie song would have to be "Absolute Beginners."
But you really can't go wrong where the Thin White Duke is concerned.

I couldn't possibly choose a favorite, although "Beauty and the Beast" and "Cactus" are right up there.

Could you imagine a reworking of "Beauty and the Beast" by Lindsey?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally posted by Lux
Maybe back in time but I think now it's the old classics that fills the arenas. Now I don't mean to piss off the Stevie fans, but it's quite clear who I think is behind all those classics, even if the fans don't necessarily recognise it and continue cry out 'Stevie we love you'. Not to remove credit from Stevie entirely, I just don't believe it's her antics that is now filling the arenas.

I dont think it's either one..it's BOTH..being there together, and all four really..it's Fleetwood Mac..If it were just Lindsey John and Mick it wouldnt be as huge as it is, nor would it be if it were just Stevie John and Mick..

Chris

[shackin'up]

Okay, I really normally don't interfere in lindsey-stevie-quality-quarrels because I think they're boring and not very in the spirit of the quality of this band imo.

but I will quote slate magazine on the reissues for this matter:

What really made these three albums tick, though—and made their sound basically irreproducible—was that late-'70s Fleetwood Mac was an improbable balancing act, powered by internal conflicts and bizarre chemistry.

A California-to-the-core studio obsessive with a permanent case of the jitters (Buckingham), a dreamy mystical type with a gift for ornate, languorous melodies (Nicks), and a veteran British rhythm section with roots in raw electric blues (Fleetwood and the McVies): Try faking that combination.

Although on SYW and this tour Christine isn't there, i still think this band has the same quality as described in the quotes.

And that's what brought the people to the shows.

And at least: It brought me overseas.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Lux
Maybe back in time but I think now it's the old classics that fills the arenas. Now I don't mean to piss off the Stevie fans, but it's quite clear who I think is behind all those classics, even if the fans don't necessarily recognise it and continue cry out 'Stevie we love you'. Not to remove credit from Stevie entirely, I just don't believe it's her antics that is now filling the arenas.

Yes, but Lindsey did not write most of the "classics": Stevie and Christine did. So, if people, like you say, are comming for the classic songs- it is because of Stevie.

Gypsy, Rhiannon, Stand Back, Landslide, Gold Dust Woman, and Dreams are all classic songs. And now, after the Dance, Silver Springs has become a new classic.

What does Lindsey have? GYOW and Tusk. Those are his classic songs.

[teedee]

Originally posted by Lux
Stevie 'wrote' those songs. Don't get me wrong, I think she's a great talent, and obviously those are her songs, but I don't think they'd be the classics if it weren't for Lindsey. She did give him (and of course producers) her tunes and he made them what they are. Rhiannon without the riff that made it the recognisable tune? Gold Dust Woman without Lindsey's input? I doubt they'd be much to perform. It is of my opinion (and mine only, don't jump down my throat here) that Lindsey's songs do not actually require Stevie, where as the opposite is not true (when I say that, I mean Lindsey, or someone in his role, obviously because of her solo career). I know, I know, most don't agree. But that's the opinion of this Lindsey fan.

Hi,
Yes stevie did write those songs and lindsey did produce them, very true, he adds more magic to them. but if its a matter of why ppl are coming out to the shows, as someone put it , to hear the classics, basically they are her songs. as for lindseys songs not needing stevie, well she may not play an instrument to add to his songs, but she does add the vocals, and lindsey did add her vocals to his songs. yes she does have her solo career which she has other producers and doesnt need lindsey and thats works out ok, even so i do think he produces her the best. about the ppl coming to the show, i do believe most of it is due to stevie, just because of her strong following .her fans will go to great lengths to see her. i do also believe they come because of the whole lindsey and stevie chemistry on stage and to hear and see them together and enjoying themselves and their interactions.this is not to say that lindsey doesnt have his on following of fans, i just believe that stevies is much stronger. I love lindsey and i do think he is the most under-rated guitarist-producer out there. but i will say this that any person going to see this tour will walk away with (if not already) a new appreciation for Mr. Lindsey Buckingham. I do think that from the Dance tour ,( and i loved the dance tour) compared to this tour, Lindsey is totally totally outdoing himself, he is on fire in all aspects, its like he is reborn and exploding ,In the early years even tho he was still a great guitarist, he wasnt as interactive with the audience on a personal level, like he is now. at one show i heard the guy behind me say, wow i didnt think he would be so outgoing with the audience. back then stevie was more the visual, but what she did was phyical with her stage persona and performance. i think its sad when ppl out there expect her to do today what she did back then ,they say oh stevies not twirling or screaming at the mic like she did, people dont realize she is older now, certain thingsshe did during songs back then may not look as appropriate at an older age, or people cant accept that she (but much better) ages like we age. either way im greatful they are together on stage, too bad chris isnt there, but its like a buckingham, nicks show,, now if they would only release that cd and suport it with a tour, omg that would be great!!!!