SYW, best album of all time?

[David]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

It's a hot mess

That appears to be the Phrase of the Day on the Ledge, but I still don't know whether it's a compliment or an insult. I should check the Urban Dictionary.

and I think they were attempting to do a Tusk Redux in some ways...but comes nowhere near the brilliance of Tusk.

The various styles of engineering used on Say You Will bug me; the sound of the album isn't attractive to my ears. Maybe ProTools output is designed for high-end playback systems, I don't know. But I hear screechy & tinny, mostly, plus gain that's driven up to the point where speakers start to buzz.

I have another problem with Say You Will: it just sounds so studied & humorless. I guess you could call Come kind of witty, but then why is it so long? There's bad judgment all over Say You Will. Rumours & Tusk also have that very charming devil-may-care quality -- they give the impression of being spontaneous & casual. But Say You Will is portentous & kind of plodding. I don't think Fleetwood Mac is very good with such serious pop art -- they should be breezy & casual & witty. That's Stevie's & Lindsey's failing, too, as solo album writers & singers. Lindsey's first album was so dang cute because it was so goofy, but what happened to that Lindsey? I think he just got pissed off.

As for Stevie Nicks, I can't think of a more humorless songwriter. I call her Miss Dour. (Maybe old Depeche Mode is even more humorless.)

[caroline79]

Originally Posted by David

.


I have another problem with Say You Will: it just sounds so studied & humorless. I guess you could call Come kind of witty, but then why is it so long? There's bad judgment all over Say You Will. Rumours & Tusk also have that very charming devil-may-care quality -- they give the impression of being spontaneous & casual. But Say You Will is portentous & kind of plodding. I don't think Fleetwood Mac is very good with such serious pop art -- they should be breezy & casual & witty. That's Stevie's & Lindsey's failing, too, as solo album writers & singers. Lindsey's first album was so dang cute because it was so goofy, but what happened to that Lindsey? I think he just got pissed off.

I think FM is great at making breezy and casual songs that can also be very meaningful to people. Like Louie said, they lost their "bridge" (Christine) which makes SYW sound very different from their albums. Sure they don't have as many casual pop songs but I also think that has to do with them growing older and having a different outlook on the world.
I find Lindsey's first album so goofy that it's hard for me to listen to it. For example, Johnny Stew? I get that it's just a fun, goofy song but hearing him growl and scream during the middle of it is just strange and not what I want to here.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by caroline79

I find Lindsey's first album so goofy that it's hard for me to listen to it. For example, Johnny Stew? I get that it's just a fun, goofy song but hearing him growl and scream during the middle of it is just strange and not what I want to here.

I agree that the monster voice intoning "Stewww, Stewww," is not exactly the type of thing you want to sing along to. Yet, somehow I never took it as a goofy song. I guess because of the production. That was the real tribute to John Stewart and I think it was extraordinary. But definitely, I don't think it is a particularly user friendly song.

Michele

[markolas]

I loved SYW when it first came out, but now I think it doesn't hold together as an album too well, and it has several songs I don't like (mostly Stevie's).

Out of LB's songs, I really like Miranda, Say Goodbye, & Bleed to Love Her. WTWCT, Peacekeeper, & SYHA are okay; sometimes I really like Rover & Murrow, other times they annoy the hell out of me. Come is a totally overblown piece of crap, IMO.

Most of SN's songs on this album make me want to wretch. I would probably really like Illume if not for Lindsey's Zelda Rubinstein routine at the end; I keep expecting him to tell the children to go into the light.

RTTG and Destiny Rules are really the only songs of hers from this album that I regularly listen to anymore. Smile at You isn't terrible, but it annoys me after a while; I never thought it was one of her better songs to begin with. Thrown Down bores the hell out of me; I love the TISL version, tho. The rest of her songs on here are kinda "meh" for me.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by David

That appears to be the Phrase of the Day on the Ledge, but I still don't know whether it's a compliment or an insult. I should check the Urban Dictionary.

Oh David, I have a friend that uses that phrase constantly. I want to strangle him every time he utters it!

PLEASE STOP SAYING HOT MESS. It's STUPID, and TIRED. It's soooo 2009!

[StandbackStevie]

I do think Say You Will album is up there as one of there best, I enjoy listening to the whole album love every song.The Say You Will Tour was an awesome Tour.

[McTrouble]

Originally Posted by caroline79

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.

I have been listening to it non-stop lately. Even with Christine gone I think it works. Songs I didn't like at first I have grown to absolutely love. I think it's completely crazy that I think this though!

There's no real Christine.

There's not as many harmonies, just echoing each other (as someone mentioned before).

I don't like the last 2 songs.

It took me a long time to like a lot of the songs.

Yet I love this CD. I love their matured voices. I love the order of the songs. I love that it is so different then anything they have done before, IMO.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one?

It's my favourite FM album too!

I think it is sublime - with the exception of just a couple of Stevie's songs.

I adore all Lindsey's songs on here, and unlike a lot of people I really really love Say Goodbye!

[Bandon]

Originally Posted by caroline79

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.

I have been listening to it non-stop lately. Even with Christine gone I think it works. Songs I didn't like at first I have grown to absolutely love. I think it's completely crazy that I think this though!

There's no real Christine.

There's not as many harmonies, just echoing each other (as someone mentioned before).

I don't like the last 2 songs.

It took me a long time to like a lot of the songs.
Yet I love this CD. I love their matured voices. I love the order of the songs. I love that it is so different then anything they have done before, IMO.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one?

It should not take a long time to like a lot of songs on any album. I think it's always interesting when fans say this about an album. I guess if you listen to anything over and over, it can grow on you whether its subpair or not. This CD was a frankenstein effort with Lindsey attempting to make another double CD with some good tracks, but mostly odd-ball, bland, non-accessible stuff. Much of Stevies tunes weren't much better. The best example was the distruction of Smile at You. Where were Christine and Richard Dashut when you needed them?

[caroline79]

Originally Posted by Bandon

It should not take a long time to like a lot of songs on any album. I think it's always interesting when fans say this about an album. I guess if you listen to anything over and over, it can grow on you whether its subpair or not. This CD was a frankenstein effort with Lindsey attempting to make another double CD with some good tracks, but mostly odd-ball, bland, non-accessible stuff. Much of Stevies tunes weren't much better. The best example was the distruction of Smile at You. Where were Christine and Richard Dashut when you needed them?

I think their is a difference. Yes I am a fan and yes there were songs that I loved at first, but some I did not. Songs like Murrow and Come I listened to the beginning, wasn't big on it, and skipped it. It wasn't until I really listened and began to understand what the song meant until I loved it. And yes, I loved it. When I first heard the CD I was very much into young FM and already went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to like these songs, but I was wrong.
I use Lindsey's first solo album as an example of how something can grow on you, but you may not love it. I can listen to it but I will never love a lot of those songs. They are just too strange, hold little meaning to me personally and I don't like how they sound.

Sure the Smile At You demo may have been better, but wasn't that Stevie's decision to tone it down and not make it sound so angry?

Fleetwood Mac has such a large collection of music and some songs don't even song like they are from the same band! And the only song I really dislike is Empire State

[chiliD]

The beauty of albums like SYW (I'll even throw Tusk & the Beatles' White Album into that pile) is that there is so much material that each person can pretty much make the album be what they want it to be. As is, the album's tracking order just bites the big one; but thanks to technology, we can give the album's tunes a more personal (or "better", or "pleasing") tracking order.

Considering the wealth of material that Lindsey had from the original GOS sessions, I could swap out songs with some of those...so MY Say You Will has this as its tracking order:

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (the wall of sound version)
To Try For The Sun (sometimes I'll swap it out for "Red Rover" here)
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo
Goodbye Baby

Originally Posted by Bandon

The best example was the distruction of Smile at You.

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

[Bandon]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication....just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop. That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves. Even Stevie was disappointed with SYW and mandates a different producer for any future albums. Oh, getting dropped from the record company after the CD is also an interesting barometer of how well the work was received.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bandon

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication.

I don't know whether those things are demos. I think they were tracking in the studio. It rawked! Steve's wrong--the band plays it fabulously. There's great power in Mick's drumming, Christine's piano is decent, John is playing good bass, & Lindsey's electric is jagged & puts the Z's in Zorro!

just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop.

That's a good way to describe it. It makes me restless. I keep wanting something to happen, but nothing ever does. It reminds me of "Doing the Best That I Can." Plus, the lead vocal is a real turnoff. What happened to this woman? She used to be such a cool singer.

That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves.

Lackluster sales figures only speak for lack of public interest, not for the work itself. How many people went to see the Taviani Brothers' great "La Notte di San Lorenzo"? How many people ordered a subscription to Beethoven's incomparable Great Fugue? How many camels are there in Araby? How many times must the white dove sail?

[secret love]

Originally Posted by Bandon

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication....just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop. That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves. Even Stevie was disappointed with SYW and mandates a different producer for any future albums. Oh, getting dropped from the record company after the CD is also an interesting barometer of how well the work was received.

The SYW record was certified Gold in the States and quite possibly, since no one knows exactly how many units were sold (last count that I read of was 800,000) Say You Will quite possible sold enough units in the US to reach Platinum status (1,000,000). It sold better than Behind the Mask and definitely better than Time.

And it does seem that the non-hard-core fans and general public (i.e. casual fans or people not very familiar or totally unfamiliar with Fleetwood Mac) are not interested in new Fleetwood Mac music now, and were not very interested in SYW at the time of its release either. To assume this is because of the album being of poor quality is fallacious and it would be difficult to establish cause and effect as to why Fleetwood Mac did not achieve P<5> or even better as they have previously but I think it is too late for them to do that now, and in 2003, it was already too late - especially without Christine churning out some more hits. Maybe some of her In the Meantime songs or leftover songs from The Dance (as she said publicly she wrote about 10 songs in preparation for the MTV Dance 'Mac special) would have boosted SYW's sales.

Bands and solo artists aged over 40, let alone 50 or 60 tend not to sell many copies of non-greatest hits new release studio albums. Fleetwood Mac's EP has zero airplay in Sydney, Australia to my knowledge not even classic hits radio stations have played Sad Angel or Without You or [gasp] Miss Fantasy and It Takes Time.

Anyway - sales is not necessarily an indicator of quality in the music industry.

And I love how SYW is so divisive - even more so than Tusk. Lots of people love Tusk among devoted fans on the Ledge, a few hate, some are in between but SYW seems to be very much love or hate with only a few people indifferent about it going by this thread. A lot of people are tending towards hating it though and I think they are missing out because it is a great album to me, but diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

And the Smile at You angry demo from '82 is my favourite version of the song because of the intensely passionate, vengeful vocals Stevie Nicks delivers within it, not because of the lack of John's strong rhythmic bass...I think he adds a lot to the band and is without a doubt an indispensable part of Fleetwood Mac. Okay maybe Paul McCartney could fill his shoes but it just wouldn't be the same - the music would sound pretty much the same but the band dynamic would be fqcked. I do miss Stevie's Janis Joplin-style belting out of tunes like this angry demo and the Rhiannon live performances from the mid seventies to early eighties described by Mick as being "like an exorcism". Then Stevie finally learnt to sing from her diaphragm for every song from the nineties onwards and as a result of singing with her throat/breathing from the upper lungs during singing for 25 years or more her voice inevitably suffered.

Nowadays the highlight of the current tour appears to be Gold Dust Woman (which also rated well during Unleashed 2009) and the stellar performance of Stand Back from the SYW tour (well, Live in Boston 2003) has faded fast. Stevie still sings extremely well but she is singing songs that used to mean something 20- or 30- years ago and are not relevant to her current situation so some of that fiery passion is inevitably lost.

[seekerj]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

It's very simple. Not EVERYBODY judges by the same things. We all have different things that are important to us. Some people (like me) aren't looking at the technical expertise of the musicianship. It's very obvious that in this situation, those who like the demo versions are picking up on something else. For me, it's the emotion that comes across from the song as a whole. I'm never going to care about the music any further than how well it backs up the message in the words. It's really that simple. We're not all musicians, but we can all relate in general to words and the delivery of them.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by seekerj

It's very simple. Not EVERYBODY judges by the same things. We all have different things that are important to us. Some people (like me) aren't looking at the technical expertise of the musicianship. It's very obvious that in this situation, those who like the demo versions are picking up on something else. For me, it's the emotion that comes across from the song as a whole. I'm never going to care about the music any further than how well it backs up the message in the words. It's really that simple. We're not all musicians, but we can all relate in general to words and the delivery of them.

I agree, to a point. Like I'm not a very lyrics loving guy. Honestly, unless they're really bad, IT'S THE MUSIC that interests me.
Here are my top ten FM songs....and they're all on the list, because of the VIBE of the music(lyrics be damned!)
Hold Me
YMLF
Gypsy
GYOW
Think About Me
What Makes You Think You're The One
As Long As You Follow
Love Shines
Sister Of The Moon
Sugar Daddy!!!
#11Rhiannon(Great riff- but not included only because I'm sick to death of it)