W shows true abortion colors

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

. . . Today's women are lucky because they have had the freedom to choose. Suppose that freedom were taken away? what would your future be then?

I think that statement is too simplistic and it puts to many people in the same benign boat. I think a great deal of abortions are done on woman who refused to make the birth control choice ahead of time and knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, I think that is what people think when they think about abortion.

I think everyone gets that rape, mistakes (condom breaks), and other things like that occur and I think most think abortion is mostly acceptable for those incidences. But I think it is hard for most people to see past the girl they envision that has had five abortions just because she could not be bothered with birth control, etc. People do not want to give that kind of person a choice

That is a hard picture to overcome

[SuzeQuze]

Well, imagine the cost of giving birth in a hospital while uninsured. Good point, Sug.

Originally Posted by Sugar

Which kinda of brings me to something I've been thinking about for a while...if the pro-lifers TRUELY want to bring about a "culture of life" (or however it is that they put it), why are they not fighting for ways to take the economical impact out of the childbirth situation.

For example, fight for the Family Leave Act to include some sort of pay. After all, if every woman who concieves will be forced to give birth it seems really crappy to subject her to up to three months with no pay. What if she's single? What if her husband is an alcoholic with no job?

I believe there are states who don't allow welfare recipiants to get any more money if they have children after they are on the system. Seems like that needs to go away if women have to have the child.

I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that always come to mind first. It really bugs me that the entire abortion discussion ends at the ninth month.

Abortion is not an easy or an enviable choice to most people. If a woman decides it's what has to happen, that's between her and her God. If the state can't offer her equal protection (loss of benefits or pay qualifies, IMO), then the state has no business being in it. And if the state isn't prepared to deal with ALL of the ramifications of overturning Roe V. Wade, then the state shouldn't be talking about it. Isn't that reasonable?

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

You know - my sister explained the abortion thing to me that way once - and I've never looked at the issue the same again.

I was going on some tiraid about politics and abortion - and she said simply, "well if you believe abortion is the murder of a child, then nothing else really matters" or something to that effect (she put it much more eloquently) - and I just sort of saw where she was coming from - my sister is very pro-life, I am pro-choice - but in my mind it's an issue that can be debated until everyone is blue in the face....her views did not make me change my own - but they did make me see things in a different light and understand where some people are coming from.....so count her as a woman who is pro-life...

Right - there's the fundamental difference. If you see the fetus as a separate life, then you can't justify abortion, any more than you could any other ending of innocent life. Therefore, arguments about economic / social circumstances, while reasonable, don't cut it in the face of that fundamental fact.

[irishgrl]

I think that statement is too simplistic and it puts to many people in the same benign boat. I think a great deal of abortions are done on woman who refused to make the birth control choice ahead of time and knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, I think that is what people think when they think about abortion.

I think your opinion on WHY "a great deal of abortions are done" is simplistic! and it is just an opinion, it is not based on any statistics. Birth control fails, and there may be other extenuating circumstances that neither you nor I are aware of. On the other hand, my statement is not simplistic at all. It is a projection based on the underlying agenda of the Relious groups. The Desert Religions (Christianity/Judaism/Muslim) are Patriarchal. In these societies Women ARE second class citizens. Their main purpose as stated in the religious writings and in practical application THRU HISTORY has been to clearly delineate the roles of men and women, where men go out and be breadwinners and women stay at home and care for the house. women have been chattel THRU HISTORY up to the 19th century/turn of the 20th century.
this is fact. The practical fact of the matter is this: if a woman is pregnant or has young children at home, she is not as free to pursue her OWN dreams or career. issues of childcare and transportation are HUGE. not to mention coordinating school schedules. Yes it can be done but only with assistance from family or friends or an outside agency. and often, the mother has to postpone her own future plans until her children are grown. I know I had to.

There are things that scare me: the recent Washington State divorce case where a pregnant woman was denied a divorce from her physuically abusive husband solely due to her pregnancy. if she cant abort, and cant get a divorce, she is trapped in an abusive marriage. the fear is that an abusive husband can keep her captive merely by keeping her pregnant. I dont want to see women EVER go back to that miserable type of existence.

[strandinthewind]

The "benign boat" referred to the women who are raped or had an actual accident despite precaution. I think most, even a great number of pro lifers, get that these women, esp. the former, are in a relatively benign situation at least regarding accountability for their actions or the actions another imposed on them.

I think the foregoing people are in a different and more sympathetic boat than the women who had the choice not to get pregnant via consenual sex but did not choose that for whatever reason. These are the people that the pro lifers and IMO most pro choicers cannot stand. They are the ones that people think are horrible because they are having multiple abortions as a means of birth control when all they had to do was get on the pill or make the guy wear a condom.

I personally make no comment on the latter. But, I do note that these people are what many have a hard time condoning when they opt for pro-choice. I also get that it is impossible to offer the choice for the former but not the latter.

So, in the end it must be pro choice for all and that burns people up

On edit because you edited:

I think your opinion on WHY "a great deal of abortions are done" is simplistic! and it is just an opinion, it is not based on any statistics.

I think you know that such people exist. I think you do not want to talk about it because it is easier to point to the more sympathetic rape victim. But, clearly many women are having multiple abortions because they cannot be bothered with birth control. I know a few and I imagine many others do as well. That is a hard pill to swallow for almost all

Also, you well know that statistics and abortions and the reasons for them are hard to access because not everyone tells the truth sort of like the rape statistics are hard to access because not all rapes are reported.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Right - there's the fundamental difference. If you see the fetus as a separate life, then you can't justify abortion, any more than you could any other ending of innocent life. Therefore, arguments about economic / social circumstances, while reasonable, don't cut it in the face of that fundamental fact.

Nancy, you just nailed it: the fetus IS NOT A SEPARATE LIFE--it is WHOLLY DEPENDENT UPON THE MOTHER'S BODY! The MOTHER didnt go away here (hello?) A fetus will NOT survive outside the womb before a certain stage of development and even then, it takes tremendous medical equipment to keep a very young fetus alive! I should know I was a 24 week baby! 24 weeks is pretty much the cutoff for viability. it is this fact that I mentioned in another thread: that the developing fetus DRAWS the raw materials it needs to develop directly from the mother, many times to the mother's detriment (again I remind you of lost teeth, bone density loss, hair loss, onset of pregnancy related medical conditions such as diabetes, not to mention chemical incompatibilities and so on) To me, this fact ALONE makes it imperative that ONLY the mother make the decision: hers is the body, hers is the risk, only she knows what sort of world the baby will be coming into....(why does EVERYONE overlook the MOTHER? does she not COUNT? When did she become INVISIBLE?)

and THAT is where the Supreme Court justified its trimester reasoning (yes I know Jason, you think they created it out of whole cloth but it is medically sound for the time being) Even if, as Jason suspects, medical science can someday push back the viability line, it would be cost prohibitive on any type of large scale.

[irishgrl]

However I dont talk about rape victims because no one disputes their right to an abortion.

and I am not condoning abortion as a means of birth control and Ive said so many times. But I also know that birth control can fail and those individuals should not be denied because their very act of taking birth control showed they didnt intend to have a baby....

no. I think abortion should be a last resort. Ive said so over and over. its not an easy choice, and one that Im sure no one makes lightly. it is not an experience I would wish to have. but again, I am not in any of those other women's shoes and neither is anyone else, therefore, its none of our business.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

However I dont talk about rape victims because no one disputes their right to an abortion.

and I am not condoning abortion as a means of birth control and Ive said so many times. But I also know that birth control can fail and those individuals should not be denied because their very act of taking birth control showed they didnt intend to have a baby....

no. I think abortion should be a last resort. Ive said so over and over. its not an easy choice, and one that Im sure no one makes lightly. it is not an experience I would wish to have. but again, I am not in any of those other women's shoes and neither is anyone else, therefore, its none of our business.

But, the world does not see it that way. All they see is what they deem as some whore screwing around and killing babies because she cannot be bothered with birth control. The image of that person, and they most certainly exist, taints the perception of the other more benign reasons like rape, failed birth control, etc.

We are on the same page here - I am just saying why I think people see abortion as horrible, etc.

[irishgrl]

We are on the same page here - I am just saying why I think people see abortion as horrible, etc.

I think the viewpoint that sees all abortion seekers as wanton whores is simplistic. Most women I've known who have done it have cried and agonized and cast about for other solutions....its NOT an easy choice to make and I really feel bad about the women who have had to make it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I think the viewpoint that sees all abortion seekers as wanton whores is simplistic. Most women I've known who have done it have cried and agonized and cast about for other solutions....its NOT an easy choice to make and I really feel bad about the women who have had to make it.

LOL- you keep either missing or spinning my point

I am not saying people see "all abortion seekers as wanton whores." I am just saying that such people who have abortions as a means of birth control do exist. I know so because I know more than one woman who has done it I think alot of people are loathe to condon this behaviour and, thus, are loathe to condon abortion because it is impossible to separate the two events leading to the choice. Thus, they want to ban abortion for all rather than let these "wanton whores" get away with it.

[irishgrl]

that the number of girls/women who have abortions as a method of birth contol is far far less than the number of girls/women who come in for other reasons.

I read your posts very carefully, btw, Its not my way to spin, Ill leave that up to you and Diss!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

that the number of girls/women who have abortions as a method of birth contol is far far less than the number of girls/women who come in for other reasons.

I read your posts very carefully, btw, Its not my way to spin, Ill leave that up to you and Diss!

Again, I think statisitics regarding abortion are a little suspect. I think most people lie regarding the reasons because of the shame involved. That makes sense to me

[irishgrl]

but Im not even sure these women are questioned about WHY they need the abortion.

I considered abortion myself and even made an appointment, and the only question that I was asked was "when was your last period" so that they could determine my window of opportunity. they didnt say ANYTHING to me about "did your birth control fail?" or "did you even USE birth control?"

its just not done.....at least it wasnt for me...
and btw: I never went to my appointment, and I have a beautiful 4yr old who is the love of my life. His FATHER on the other hand, is a scourge, a blot on the landscape!

[Sugar]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Therefore, arguments about economic / social circumstances, while reasonable, don't cut it in the face of that fundamental fact.

Perhaps the arguments don't "cut it", but are you prepared for the economic ramifications of what it would mean to be a pro-life nation? Do you see nothing that should be done BEFORE the overturn of Roe v. Wade, since that is your desire?

Are you prepared for the toll on the welfare system and other social programs? The toll on the workplace? The toll on health insurance? Not to mention the toll on the role of women (God help the woman stuck in an abusive relationship repeatedly raped by her husband to keep her dependent).

Maybe all those prices are worth it to some in order to save the life of the unborn, but those prices will have to be paid. And what drives me crazy is that if Roe v. Wade is overturned it will take YEARS to figure out how to pay that price. And while the government is trying to figure out how (if) to change the welfare laws and other work related laws it will be pregnant women left holding the bag, perhaps without income and/or health insurance.

Lest we forget, that's not a very good environment to raise a child in.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

but Im not even sure these women are questioned about WHY they need the abortion.

I considered abortion myself and even made an appointment, and the only question that I was asked was "when was your last period" so that they could determine my window of opportunity. they didnt say ANYTHING to me about "did your birth control fail?" or "did you even USE birth control?"

Then how do they get the statistics? I am curious. I am not being snarky