Let's show some love for Penguin and Heroes!

[chriskisn]

Arrrggggh...I can't take all this anti-Dave Walker stuff...I swear that if the boys in his current band can get him on the net I'm going to try to drag him into this forum to defend himself.

The man is brilliant, he oozes talent, raw, rockin' smokin' talent!

now if only there was an emoticon for sitting in the corner crying uncontrollably I'd use it.

[dino]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Arrrggggh...I can't take all this anti-Dave Walker stuff...I swear that if the boys in his current band can get him on the net I'm going to try to drag him into this forum to defend himself.

The man is brilliant, he oozes talent, raw, rockin' smokin' talent!

now if only there was an emoticon for sitting in the corner crying uncontrollably I'd use it.

I'm definitely pro-Walker - he is obviously a fine singer. Can see why he wouldn't appeal to Rumours-era fans though - he's too bluesy, too authentic .

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by dino

I'm definitely pro-Walker - he is obviously a fine singer. Can see why he wouldn't appeal to Rumours-era fans though - he's too bluesy, too authentic .

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer . About the furthest thing you can get from authentic, in my book. When I hear white English dudes like Walker, Joe Cocker, and others trying to emulate gritty Delta blues men, it just puts a sandy pinecone up my orifice of choice. Those type dudes don't know anything about being a black man in the Southern US, where you couldn't drink from the white man's water fountain, and had to go to separate schools, etc. White English dudes who try to sing gritty blues are just a caricature emulating the real thing, in my book. And they always end up profiting from the sound they're aping, while the original folks never get rich off their craft. I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album. They're a wart. If the entire album had that sound, it'd be a different story. These tunes could have worked on Bare Trees, perhaps... but not Penguin. To me, the '73-'74 Mac albums were starting to get a quite progressive sound to them... and I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict just seem like two steps back. Just my humble opinion tho, folks!

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album.

Or to look at it another way, the rest of Penguin is sorely out of place...

Oh and to address the other point of your post that I didn't quote here - remember as Jeremy Spencer says - you don't have to be black to be blue...

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Or to look at it another way, the rest of Penguin is sorely out of place...

As a critical premise, it doesn't work. Dave Walker joined to the band, the band did not join him. So as much as you love his work (and I can see why) and as much as you might think the rest of the album iffy the McVie/Welch material was "in place" given the band's direction at that time.

I think Walker as a singer is as good as any big-voiced hard-rocking front man in any number of 70's power bands. FM just wasn't that kind of band. Deep Purple should have hired him after Ian Gillan (sp?) left.

[dino]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer .

Stop waving, we're not on live television... Where did I write "authentic blues singer"? I did not, right. As for the rest, slipkid put it nicely. The old argument that a white man can't play/sing blues (look at Eric Clapton in Armani suits) is a kind of inverted racism. All pop music is African in origin anyway.

Yep, Walker would have fit better in Deep Purple, a less wimpy band .

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

As a critical premise, it doesn't work. Dave Walker joined to the band, the band did not join him. So as much as you love his work (and I can see why) and as much as you might think the rest of the album iffy the McVie/Welch material was "in place" given the band's direction at that time.

I think Walker as a singer is as good as any big-voiced hard-rocking front man in any number of 70's power bands. FM just wasn't that kind of band. Deep Purple should have hired him after Ian Gillan (sp?) left.

Perhaps.

I've never managed to see how Fleetwood Mac has ever managed to put together an album that sounds like it all belongs together, perhaps with a couple of exceptions - Heroes are Hard To Find and PG's Fleetwood Mac.

Plus, it wasn't as if Dave Walker changed in any way when he came into FM, he sounded the same as his Idle Race and Savoy Brown work. So, my argument is this:

FM hired Dave to do a particular job, give a particular sound. Then the rest of them went and did an album that wasn't going to fit with Dave. Surely at some point they sat down and said "Oh we want to go in this particular direction, Dave Walker will fit in well with that..." It really was the rest of the bands fault if he didn't.

If the band never intended to go in that direction then they would not have hired him... His introduction was designed to change the FM sound, sadly the rest of them didn't move on until at least Tusk...

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

If the band never intended to go in that direction then they would not have hired him... His introduction was designed to change the FM sound, sadly the rest of them didn't move on until at least Tusk...

The reason they hired Dave was not to change the sound of the band. Recalling comments from band members, they convinced themselves to believe that they needed a front man...at this point in time.

Yet they were very uncomfortable with that prospect -- hence his limited output on the album. They just didn't really know what to do with him - how to assimilate him into the group as the front man. Then it became very obvious to all that the chemistry was off and having an official designated "front man" was not the preferred format of a Fleetwood Mac band.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

You don't have to be of color, and born in the southeast U.S. to experience prejudice, and bigotry. Peter Green was born into a blue-collar family of a Jewish butcher in England. Compare that to Mike Bloomfield, who was Jewish from Chicago, who had a father that made a fortune from his invention patents. Especially living in England, Peter Green suffered more anti-semitic behavior than Mike Bloomfield. Yet both must've experienced that pain of rejection just because of their religion, and appearance. Of course they weren't poor enough to pick cotton for a living, but they experienced the same pain of rejection because of who they were. Is it any wonder why Peter Green, and Mike Bloomfield's work over forty years ago is still appreciated? Personally I hear more pain through Peter Green. It's very real.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer . About the furthest thing you can get from authentic, in my book. When I hear white English dudes like Walker, Joe Cocker, and others trying to emulate gritty Delta blues men, it just puts a sandy pinecone up my orifice of choice. Those type dudes don't know anything about being a black man in the Southern US, where you couldn't drink from the white man's water fountain, and had to go to separate schools, etc. White English dudes who try to sing gritty blues are just a caricature emulating the real thing, in my book. And they always end up profiting from the sound they're aping, while the original folks never get rich off their craft. I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album. They're a wart. If the entire album had that sound, it'd be a different story. These tunes could have worked on Bare Trees, perhaps... but not Penguin. To me, the '73-'74 Mac albums were starting to get a quite progressive sound to them... and I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict just seem like two steps back. Just my humble opinion tho, folks!

I have a fond appreciation for odd birds, and agree with your insightful comments. I never understood how so many lily pale white english blokes were able to gain credibility co-opting the blues; a very strange period of time in music for UK/Europe.

I guess a bunch of wimpy white guys singing the blues was much more palatable and less threatening to the masses than a bunch of big black guys. Reference how rock and roll emerged: white guys borrowed and stole many aspects of old blues, modified it and resold it. They got famous and made a lot of money, while the original creators were often left uncredited, and wallowing in obscurity and poverty. That's rock and roll!

But now I diverge...kudos to you for using the word "Alas."

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

I have a fond appreciation for odd birds, and agree with your insightful comments. I never understood how so many lily pale white english blokes were able to gain credibility co-opting the blues; a very strange period of time in music for UK/Europe.

I guess a bunch of wimpy white guys singing the blues was much more palatable and less threatening to the masses than a bunch of big black guys. Reference how rock and roll emerged: white guys borrowed and stole many aspects of old blues, modified it and resold it. They got famous and made a lot of money, while the original creators were often left uncredited, and wallowing in obscurity and poverty. That's rock and roll!

But now I diverge...kudos to you for using the word "Alas."

It's actually very simple. The English were receiving the same records sold in the U.S. through shipping ports such as Southhampton, and Liverpool. The difference is the bible belt goons who resided in the deep south prevented the locals from receiving such material, including Little Richard, and Chuck Berry. So England was getting the blues/rnr records that were outlawed in the deep south of the U.S., while the lucky ones such as Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash heard the juke joints in person. So those Sun Record individuals exposed a side a life to the sheltered ones, and the rest is history. You're right, because they were white, they opened the door, we're talking about the United States in the late 1950's !?!? Should I send you the link for Pat Boone's "Tutti Frutti" from Youtube? That was mainstream America. It was free of commies, only to worry about the next Soviet invasion. We call this era; "Commie paranoia"

Fast forward ten years; The Beatles own the top 40 in the US, as do a few British invasion acts. Ten years on, British blues bands emerge. Those bands have albums that were never allowed to be released in the deep white south. Yet a certain band from Macon, GA had connections.


I'm aware of what the likes of Peter Grant, and Jimmy Page did to prevent the royalties to go to the rightful owners of their songs (Willie Dixon). Yet you can't put that stigma on Peter Green.


If it wasn't for the 1960's British Blues movement, many NPR blues' snobs' would be out of a job today.

[sjpdg]

Originally Posted by slipkid

It's actually very simple. The English were receiving the same records sold in the U.S. through shipping ports such as Southhampton, and Liverpool. The difference is the bible belt goons who resided in the deep south prevented the locals from receiving such material, including Little Richard, and Chuck Berry. So England was getting the blues/rnr records that were outlawed in the deep south of the U.S., while the lucky ones such as Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash heard the juke joints in person. So those Sun Record individuals exposed a side a life to the sheltered ones, and the rest is history. You're right, because they were white, they opened the door, we're talking about the United States in the late 1950's !?!? Should I send you the link for Pat Boone's "Tutti Frutti" from Youtube? That was mainstream America. It was free of commies, only to worry about the next Soviet invasion. We call this era; "Commie paranoia"

Fast forward ten years; The Beatles own the top 40 in the US, as do a few British invasion acts. Ten years on, British blues bands emerge. Those bands have albums that were never allowed to be released in the deep white south. Yet a certain band from Macon, GA had connections.


I'm aware of what the likes of Peter Grant, and Jimmy Page did to prevent the royalties to go to the rightful owners of their songs (Willie Dixon). Yet you can't put that stigma on Peter Green.


If it wasn't for the 1960's British Blues movement, many NPR blues' snobs' would be out of a job today.

I'll just put it the way B.B. King puts in on his XM Radio channel: "There's no black, no white, only the blues baby." The blues has no color, no ethnicity. It helped give birth to rock and roll and is a close relative to country music. In my humble opinion, it is one of the places (not the only one, but at least one of the places) where blacks and white have been able to come together and work on ripping down the walls that have been built between them. So, I say, "God Bless the Blues!!!"

[michelej1]

Another entry in David Bowling's Fleetwood Mac series for Blogcritics.org, 11/2/2010

http://blogcritics.org/music/article...d-mac-penguin/

During the tour for Fleetwood Mac's 1972 release, Bare Trees, guitarist Danny Kirwan stopped showing up for performances, for which he was summarily fired from the group. Guitarist Bob Welch, keyboardist Christine McVie, bassist John McVie, and drummer Mick Fleetwood recruited two musicians to fill his shoes.

Guitarist Bob Weston and vocalist/harpist Dave Walker were added to the band as they entered the studio to record their next album. Penguin would emerge as an inconsistent release, as the new parts of Fleetwood Mac did not mesh with the old ones very well. Walker’s gritty vocals were far removed from the pop sound the group was moving toward, and as such he was an odd choice. He would be asked to leave shortly after the album's release.

Weston would clash with Bob Welch, but his undoing was his affair with Mick Fleetwood’s wife, Jenny Boyd. who’s sister Patti married and divorced George Harrison and Eric Clapton. The affair would end with Weston being fired and their U.S. tour coming to a halt. Fleetwood would divorce, remarry, and redivorce Boyd.

It is Welch who provided the center for the album. Plus, his keeping the group alive during this troubled period in its history should have ended with his entrance into The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame when eight members of Fleetwood Mac were inducted.

"Bright Fire” is both odd and soothing and has a Pink Floyd feel. “Revelation” is a nice rocker with Christine McVie’s vocals overdubbed to provide the background. “Night Watch,” at over six minutes, is the best track and dominates the album. Welch's vocal is excellent and some nice harmonies are in place. Peter Green adds some uncredited lead guitar.

Christine McVie’s contributions are fine but not outstanding. “Remember Me” has a light and bluesy feeling. “Dissatisfied” moves in a soul direction, highlighted by Fleetwood’s drumming. She and Welch wrote “Did You Ever Leave Me," but the song would have been better served by having Welch duet with her rather than Weston.

Dave Walker’s “The Derelict” remains one of the worst songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalogue, as it is basically a country tune complete with a banjo and a vocal which does not fit. Likewise, his vocal on the Holland, B./Dozier/Holland, E. tune “(I’m A) Road Runner” is out of place. “Caught In The Rain” is a Weston instrumental creation which ends the album on a depressing note.

Kirwan’s subtle guitar playing and songwriting were greatly missed. Bob Welch did what he could but even with all his efforts, the album only approached average. Penguin is a Fleetwood Mac album only for fans who want everything in the band's catalogue.



Read more: http://blogcritics.org/music/article...#ixzz14BsNMa7s

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Likewise, his vocal on the Holland, B./Dozier/Holland, E. tune “(I’m A) Road Runner” is out of place.

Does he mean that the vocal should have been as washed out, wimpy and forgettable as the backing musicians? Take Chris and the Bobs off and replace them with Jeremy and Danny or Peter, wake up John and Mick, place it with the "Mr Wonderful" tracks and it would have people raving about it. People going on (and on) about how Walker's songs "don't fit" on the album irritate me. So what, exactly?

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Another entry in David Bowling's Fleetwood Mac series for Blogcritics.org, 11/2/2010

http://blogcritics.org/music/article...d-mac-penguin/

Weston would clash with Bob Welch...

Never EVER heard that before...pretty much think that's bulls**t

Originally Posted by michelej1

Christine McVie’s contributions are fine but not outstanding. “Remember Me” has a light and bluesy feeling. “Dissatisfied” moves in a soul direction, highlighted by Fleetwood’s drumming. She and Welch wrote “Did You Ever Leave Me," but the song would have been better served by having Welch duet with her rather than Weston.

No...I don't think so. Weston sounds just fine & dandy on the song. Oh, and BTW, the song is titled "Did You Ever LOVE Me?". Can this article be filled with any MORE BS?

Originally Posted by michelej1

Dave Walker’s “The Derelict” remains one of the worst songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalogue, as it is basically a country tune complete with a banjo and a vocal which does not fit. Likewise, his vocal on the Holland, B./Dozier/Holland, E. tune “(I’m A) Road Runner” is out of place.

I guess the answer to my last question is "yes". Obviously, the writer never heard "The Second Time". And, so what if "The Derelict" is "basically a country tune"...nothing wrong with that, OR having a banjo...obviously, the writer never heard the studio version of "Say You Love Me" either. Who the F*** is this guy and what kind of meds is he on??

Originally Posted by michelej1

“Caught In The Rain” is a Weston instrumental creation which ends the album on a depressing note.

"Depressing"? Again, I think this answers my previous question. If "Caught In The Rain" leaves you depressed, then God help you. I find it leaves ME refreshed like after a midsummer's downpour...breathing clean air and feeling a slight cool breeze.

Originally Posted by michelej1

Kirwan’s subtle guitar playing and songwriting were greatly missed.

Well, he wasn't in the band anymore...so beyond that, not really. Bob Weston is a great guitarist and more than competent replacement. OH, and Kirwan's guitar playing was never "subtle"...he was as "in your face" as anyone else.

Originally Posted by michelej1

Bob Welch did what he could but even with all his efforts, the album only approached average. Penguin is a Fleetwood Mac album only for fans who want everything in the band's catalogue.

Ahhh, the final shovel full of crap on top for flavoring.